Thanks, I agree!
 

Come the end of November when there will be Captains up to the age of 65 flying aircraft into and out of the USA, and all around the world. That is with the exception of American pilots working for US airlines. I guess there will be some special ALPA pilots up to the age of 65 flying into and out of the US, but they will hold a Canadian passport. :(

Bob was on strike for two years with Continental. I've spent 8+ years on furlough. I've worked for 13 airlines as a result. Pilots at UAL, USAIR, DAL, NWA, plus almost all ALPA carriers have either lost or will lose their pension. Most senior UAL pilots wear a gold screw pin over their ALPA pin.

So the answer is make the junior pilot pay for what has happened to you, Bob and all pilots who have lost their pension? Just wondering why you kept ending up at carriers that didn't make it or furloughed you. I know I didn't even consider airlines that were not solid financially. As far as those losing pensions, they have my utmost sympathy and I am sure it is very traumatic for them. That being said, these pilots have lived under the most lucrative contracts in airline history and anyone who knows this industry knows that no airline was ever exempt from ceasing to exist, much less losing their pension. All these guys had friends at Eastern, Pan Am, TWA etc. There is really no excuse for not being prepared for the worst and they had the opportunity to do it under those contracts. There is a legal system that can be used to recover those lost pensions. I'll be glad to contribute to help them fight it, but think changing age 60 because it hurts instead of helps them now isn't the solution. Why should pilots on the street be kept there an extra 5 years, or junior pilots be kept out of seats they have waited patiently for, just because guys like you aren't ready to leave the seats they upgraded to because those ahead of them had to retire at 60? Remember, these are the same pilots that benefited from the B fund days at junior pilots expense. They had the resources to be ready for this, even if no one could have predicted how it would come about.

The answer to all the above is because it is the right thing to do. There is nothing in the legal system that will allow anyone from recovering one cent of pension money.

Points
 

FreightDawgyDog:

You make some points here that ought to be addressed. Please note that I have written about all these points many, many times in past articles but I understand that you might not have seen them:

1. "So the answer is to make the junior pilot pay for what has happened to you, Bob and all pilots who have lost their pensions?"

Ans: First, nothing "happened to me," or to Jim Sullivan, Dan Murphy, Chuck Henry or other FedEx pilots who fought the war at CAL and EAL. We chose to go on strike on behalf of our families and fellow pilots. The fact that many people have chosen this path at the proper moment is what enables you to have a good salary at FedEx.

Second, it is important to focus on the principles of the matter and not the personalities. You really have no idea of what my financial condition is and it does not matter. I can tell you that Jim Sullivan is a wealthy guy and a very successful businessman. He is a FedEx pilot and he wishes to scrap the Age 60 rule. The ethical principle is that the Age 60 rule is a blatant and unjustifiable act of age discrimination. I have been writing about it for more than 10 years at FedEx. This has nothing to do with "me." It has a lot to do with the integrity of our profession.

2. Regarding your comment: "...I didn't even consider airlines that were not solid financially."

Ans: I guess you are smarter than me. Continental was the FedEx of its time and it seemed like a good choice.

3. "There is really no excuse for not being prepared for the worst and they had the opportunity to do it under those contracts."

Ans: There may not be any excuses that satisfy you, but there are very good reasons. For instance, if you go on strike to fight the battle, you may well expend all of your excellent savings on behalf of the profession, including your retirement fund. That is exactly what many pilots did in order to help secure your future. My friend, Chuck Henry, recently said that the pilots at FedEx really need to go on strike so that they can learn the lessons first hand. I am in somewhat agreement. If you are not going to listen to those who have fought the battle, then you need to learn it for yourself. I will not be joining you on the picket line this time, nor will some of the others whom I have mentioned.

You cannot have it both ways: You cannot reasonably expect pilots to go on strike again at the end of their careers to support your interests and at the same time deny them the right to recover financially by flying past 60. Especially, after telling them it is their fault that they were not financially prepared the last time around. I trust that you can see the silliness of this.

4. "Why should pilots on the street be kept there an extra 5 years, or junior pilots be kept out of seats they have waited patiently for...?"

Ans: Let's examine this question: You claim to have a genuine concern for those who are currently "furloughed," but you indicate no real concern for those who voluntarily went on strike and/or were furloughed earlier in their professional careers. What in the world is the difference? Five years is five years, is it not? Are you suggesting that two years of strike and no income does not constitute "waiting patiently?" I would think that you would especially honor the voluntary sacrifice of those who went on strike well above those who were merely furloughed. After all, according to your earlier statement, the furloughees were at fault for choosing to work for companies that "were not solid financially." Please correct me if that is not how you see it.

5. "Remember, these are the same pilots that benefited from the B fund days at junior pilots expense. They had the resources to be ready for this, even if no one could have predicted how it would come about."

Ans: Although your statement is not technically accurate (many strikers had been at Continental for less than five years when we went on strike, and were not vested in the B Plan. How could they have possibly been "ready for this?"), I actually agree with you in principle. The senior pilots have always trampled on the junior pilots and taken care of themselves at their expense. This was totally the case with the A, B, and C pay scales. I have argued against this as well as the Age 60 rule for nearly 25 years. We are killing each other at both ends of the seniority spectrum. We have eaten our young for years and now we are eating our old, and the company knows it.

You are correct in your frustration at this behavior. This needs to end now and a fair and thoughtful system needs to be employed. Lack of leadership in solving such ethical dilemmas is contributing to the destruction of our profession. In fact, ALPA opposes any attempts to change. I have made many proposals to them and they have been totally ignored. There is no time better than the present than to focus on the ethical principles required to create "natural" unity and to stop relying on the "crisis" version that no longer works in the competitive marketplace. See my article, "Learning to Compete Wisely..." at www.pilotunity.com.

Best wishes,

Bob

"You make some points here that ought to be addressed. Please note that I have written about all these points many, many times in past articles but I understand that you might not have seen them:"

Before I answer, let me check something..Yep. That's what I thought. Two names that are strikingly familiar to your's and one of those you mentioned aren't in the union. Interesting that you both think we need to learn a hard lesson by going on strike. Sadly you won't have a vote in that matter. Pay your dues and get the respect back you had for going on strike at CAL. The other pilot's from the CAL strike that are union members have my appreciation and respect.

For the record, you addressed mostly the case for striking CAL pilots to not have to retire at age 60. My point was more about guys who feel they have been furloughed too much, or lost their pension, to keep flying in seats that were opened up for them by the very rule they want to change. Don't expect me to answer any more posts from you until you do the right thing and join the union.

Dawgy,

"Don't expect me to answer any more posts from you until you do the right thing and join the union."

No response expected. I understand.

Unfortunately, as I have pointed out, union membership has dropped to 7.8% of the private workforce in this country. You are soon not going to have many people to talk to at the present rate.

Those who have rejected traditional unionism are in the clear vast majority in this country and I assume that they think they are doing the "right thing." The main reason people give for not joining unions is the corruption and incompetence of union "leaders." Continued contribution to ALPA, an organization whose policies I consider destructive to our profession would, in my case, be ridiculous. I hope you can appreciate that. I, again, urge you to focus on the principles and the issues rather than on personalities such as me.

I have no problem, whatsoever, with you continuing to contribute your dues money to your cause, and I wish you well.

Bob

Excuse me, but I think that the union membership at FedEx far exceeds 7.8%. And I suspect that those of us that have chosen to join and support our union will have plenty of other pilots to talk to for quite a while.

If you are so concerned with the "corruption" factor within the union then please feel free to take yourself back to the old FCH days with its pay and benefits. It would not offend me one bit if you gave that money back to the company or donate it to your favorite charity. But believe me, I ain't holding my breath.

Consider the source
 

Bob, you as a union member have every right, and, with convictions as strong as yours, an expectation you become a part of the process, as a union leader. Oh course its easier to to sit on the sidelines, casting stones at the union membership that, as a majority, has voted in ways (contrary) to your wishes. If union leadership is incompetent and corrupt, than I would expect a self appointed leader, like yourself :rolleyes: would have weighed in to fix the injustice.

Oh course you don't. Your like every other non member with an excuse not to be part of the solution. Answer me this, Bob, "how many non members (including yourself) have ever returned one dollar, turned away one benefit, negotiated by the union representing all workers in class and craft ?".

We all know the answer. None

Ranger and Dckozak,

Although I share your frustration, I believe you are wasting your time. The answers you seek are obvious to everyone, yet a small few still prefer to keep all the benefits the large majority secure for them, as well as keep their dues money. We have heard many excuses as to why from every one of them. In the end it's all about the money. Why even engage such independent agents and give them a platform? They choose to ostracize themselves so let them be ostracized. That's how I choose to do it anyway. If you want a say, then pay your way. Otherwise let them keep their opinions, just like they do their dues money, to themselves.

Agreed
 

Good point