IPA - "We Take Care Of Our Own" fund?
03-07-2009, 06:57 AM
#1
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
IPA - "We Take Care Of Our Own" fund?
Please support the Furlough Fund idea SaltyDog presented here earlier.
(in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
IF it happens which we all hope it won't.
If it doesn't - we pay the money right back.
If it does - the minute the guys/gals are back on property we stop the plan and reimburse the remaining money to all contributors (hopefully ALL IPA members)
Why you ask?
A well respected captain told me the other day - "I'd rather pay 10% to the furlough fund than take 1% in pay cuts." Pay cuts are permanent while a furlough fund can be cancelled the minute everyone gets recalled.
Most of all - because we would be taking care of our own and that's the premise of having a union to begin with. By uniting now and protecting our junior members (full disclosure - I am a junior member) we are securing our future as a union.
There are many ways to save money for our company and we all should work very hard trying to find ways to save money – it is our company too and we do want it to succeed! However, we shouldn’t do it by weakening our hard won contract.
I think we should vote on it and we should do it very soon. For one, logistically speaking I’d imagine it would take some time to get it up and running. Also, I think it’d send a very strong signal to the company that we’re serious about protecting our contract while taking care of our members.
Everyone here keeps repeating – no pay cuts, no concessions, etc.
It sounds great and I do agree with you all. Having said that, this is a very severe recession we’re dealing with and as opposed to past downturns there are NO jobs out there – not just aviation related jobs – nothing. In my home town, even Wal-Mart imposed a hiring freeze!
I’d never seen that before.
Folks, if you think this idea sounds like a great plan (I DO!) you need to let our EB know that! – PM Salty if you have questions on how you may help.
This will not happen just because we’re “talking” about it on APC, we need to vote first AND the majority must vote for it. It’s far from certain.
So get involved, help building a consensus on what needs to be done. Spread the word, emails, phone calls, anything you can think of.
Let’s be proactive here instead of waiting until it’s too late…
(in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
IF it happens which we all hope it won't.
If it doesn't - we pay the money right back.
If it does - the minute the guys/gals are back on property we stop the plan and reimburse the remaining money to all contributors (hopefully ALL IPA members)
Why you ask?
A well respected captain told me the other day - "I'd rather pay 10% to the furlough fund than take 1% in pay cuts." Pay cuts are permanent while a furlough fund can be cancelled the minute everyone gets recalled.
Most of all - because we would be taking care of our own and that's the premise of having a union to begin with. By uniting now and protecting our junior members (full disclosure - I am a junior member) we are securing our future as a union.
There are many ways to save money for our company and we all should work very hard trying to find ways to save money – it is our company too and we do want it to succeed! However, we shouldn’t do it by weakening our hard won contract.
I think we should vote on it and we should do it very soon. For one, logistically speaking I’d imagine it would take some time to get it up and running. Also, I think it’d send a very strong signal to the company that we’re serious about protecting our contract while taking care of our members.
Everyone here keeps repeating – no pay cuts, no concessions, etc.
It sounds great and I do agree with you all. Having said that, this is a very severe recession we’re dealing with and as opposed to past downturns there are NO jobs out there – not just aviation related jobs – nothing. In my home town, even Wal-Mart imposed a hiring freeze!
I’d never seen that before.
Folks, if you think this idea sounds like a great plan (I DO!) you need to let our EB know that! – PM Salty if you have questions on how you may help.
This will not happen just because we’re “talking” about it on APC, we need to vote first AND the majority must vote for it. It’s far from certain.
So get involved, help building a consensus on what needs to be done. Spread the word, emails, phone calls, anything you can think of.
Let’s be proactive here instead of waiting until it’s too late…
03-07-2009, 08:45 AM
#2
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Yes & Yes!
Posts: 127
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Please support the Furlough Fund idea SaltyDog presented here earlier.
(in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
IF it happens which we all hope it won't.
If it doesn't - we pay the money right back.
If it does - the minute the guys/gals are back on property we stop the plan and reimburse the remaining money to all contributors (hopefully ALL IPA members)
Why you ask?
A well respected captain told me the other day - "I'd rather pay 10% to the furlough fund than take 1% in pay cuts." Pay cuts are permanent while a furlough fund can be cancelled the minute everyone gets recalled.
Most of all - because we would be taking care of our own and that's the premise of having a union to begin with. By uniting now and protecting our junior members (full disclosure - I am a junior member) we are securing our future as a union.
There are many ways to save money for our company and we all should work very hard trying to find ways to save money – it is our company too and we do want it to succeed! However, we shouldn’t do it by weakening our hard won contract.
I think we should vote on it and we should do it very soon. For one, logistically speaking I’d imagine it would take some time to get it up and running. Also, I think it’d send a very strong signal to the company that we’re serious about protecting our contract while taking care of our members.
Everyone here keeps repeating – no pay cuts, no concessions, etc.
It sounds great and I do agree with you all. Having said that, this is a very severe recession we’re dealing with and as opposed to past downturns there are NO jobs out there – not just aviation related jobs – nothing. In my home town, even Wal-Mart imposed a hiring freeze!
I’d never seen that before.
Folks, if you think this idea sounds like a great plan (I DO!) you need to let our EB know that! – PM Salty if you have questions on how you may help.
This will not happen just because we’re “talking” about it on APC, we need to vote first AND the majority must vote for it. It’s far from certain.
So get involved, help building a consensus on what needs to be done. Spread the word, emails, phone calls, anything you can think of.
Let’s be proactive here instead of waiting until it’s too late…
(in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
IF it happens which we all hope it won't.
If it doesn't - we pay the money right back.
If it does - the minute the guys/gals are back on property we stop the plan and reimburse the remaining money to all contributors (hopefully ALL IPA members)
Why you ask?
A well respected captain told me the other day - "I'd rather pay 10% to the furlough fund than take 1% in pay cuts." Pay cuts are permanent while a furlough fund can be cancelled the minute everyone gets recalled.
Most of all - because we would be taking care of our own and that's the premise of having a union to begin with. By uniting now and protecting our junior members (full disclosure - I am a junior member) we are securing our future as a union.
There are many ways to save money for our company and we all should work very hard trying to find ways to save money – it is our company too and we do want it to succeed! However, we shouldn’t do it by weakening our hard won contract.
I think we should vote on it and we should do it very soon. For one, logistically speaking I’d imagine it would take some time to get it up and running. Also, I think it’d send a very strong signal to the company that we’re serious about protecting our contract while taking care of our members.
Everyone here keeps repeating – no pay cuts, no concessions, etc.
It sounds great and I do agree with you all. Having said that, this is a very severe recession we’re dealing with and as opposed to past downturns there are NO jobs out there – not just aviation related jobs – nothing. In my home town, even Wal-Mart imposed a hiring freeze!
I’d never seen that before.
Folks, if you think this idea sounds like a great plan (I DO!) you need to let our EB know that! – PM Salty if you have questions on how you may help.
This will not happen just because we’re “talking” about it on APC, we need to vote first AND the majority must vote for it. It’s far from certain.
So get involved, help building a consensus on what needs to be done. Spread the word, emails, phone calls, anything you can think of.
Let’s be proactive here instead of waiting until it’s too late…
03-07-2009, 08:52 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Originally Posted by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE
Please support the Furlough Fund idea SaltyDog presented here earlier.
[COLOR=black][COLOR=black](in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
[COLOR=black][COLOR=black](in a nutshell we would ALL pay a percentage into a fund (sort of like the MAP plan) that'd pay COBRA medical coverage and a furlough salary to our "unlucky ones" – in other words, WE TAKE CARE OF OUR OWN - IPA 100%)
Manning levels are at the discretion of the company and EVERYONE in this industry understands the cyclical nature of the airline business and its associated hazards when one is junior. I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic to the plight of those facing potential furlough, but when I accepted employment with UPS (and membership into the IPA) I did NOT also agree to financially support nearly 3000 co-workers! It simply was not part of the agreement.
Everywhere I turn people want a handout or bailout. Some need to be reminded that it is incumbent upon all of us to provide for ourselves in life. If you're unfortunate to be furloughed, then you do what others do every day in other industries that downsize and scramble to find another job doing ANYTHING to pay the bills until you are recalled or choose another career path. I assume that if you are furloughed then you are young, healthy and able-bodied. I'm sure we've all been in a similar situation sometime in our careers (just out of college, between jobs, downsized, furloughed, fired, separated from military, etc...)
My wife and friends are in complete disbelief that co-workers united only by their membership in a trade union would be expected to financially support hundreds or thousands of their co-workers. You are essentially proposing to garnish people's wages to force them to give to a charity. All else aside, I'm fairly certain a mandatory confiscation of someone's wages to forcibly contribute to a charity is illegal.
Just to repeat... I'm all for a voluntary fund.
Joe
03-07-2009, 09:55 AM
#5
Permanent Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,677
Ave Joe,
If you can't afford 1 or 2% then sell your boat, your airplane, your second house, or retire.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as charity. In fact, it will probably be doing more good than you may imagine, e.g. keeping a furloughed brother from:
1. declaring bankruptcy
2. losing their house.
3. having a major health crisis and not having insurance
4. divorce
Do the right thing. And don't be so cheap.
If you can't afford 1 or 2% then sell your boat, your airplane, your second house, or retire.
If it makes you feel better, think of it as charity. In fact, it will probably be doing more good than you may imagine, e.g. keeping a furloughed brother from:
1. declaring bankruptcy
2. losing their house.
3. having a major health crisis and not having insurance
4. divorce
Do the right thing. And don't be so cheap.
03-07-2009, 09:58 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: MD CA
Posts: 705
I have to agree with his not popular answer. I will contribute to a fund for Insurance for any furlough. But to pay a salary while out, that just isn't going to happen. And it's not the Unions job to force it's members to do as such. We are in an airline Industry, and we all know the risks by having a seniority based system.
03-07-2009, 10:00 AM
#8
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
Sorry AW... but I disagree with your MANDATORY premise. If people would like to VOLUNTARILY contribute to a fund then I'm all for it and would be happy to contribute.
Manning levels are at the discretion of the company and EVERYONE in this industry understands the cyclical nature of the airline business and its associated hazards when one is junior. I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic to the plight of those facing potential furlough, but when I accepted employment with UPS (and membership into the IPA) I did NOT also agree to financially support nearly 3000 co-workers! It simply was not part of the agreement.
Manning levels are at the discretion of the company and EVERYONE in this industry understands the cyclical nature of the airline business and its associated hazards when one is junior. I don't mean to sound harsh or unsympathetic to the plight of those facing potential furlough, but when I accepted employment with UPS (and membership into the IPA) I did NOT also agree to financially support nearly 3000 co-workers! It simply was not part of the agreement.
First of all, I respect you position and appreciate your honesty, I mean it.
Please remember that you would not be supporting 3,000 coworkers, you would be supporting 300.
Also, this isn’t only about supporting the junior pilots. It's about extreme market conditions with literally no jobs available, all combined with the largest setback for the junior pilots in the last 50 years in the form of age 65 legislation. Please do not turn this into yet another age 65 debate but realize the new law is hurting the junior pilots way more than anyone anticipated when the legislation was signed.
I believe Roberto (over 60 guy) said in the past he’d support assisting junior pilots and if so I hope he’ll speak up here. (I also hope my memory serves me right here, I really do not want to put him on the spot if I am wrong
)IF you want it to be all voluntarily it means it will never happen.
I've been told before that for every “donation offer” made here on APC to someone’s children fund etc. of a pilot who perished in an aircraft accident, etc. less than 10% actually follow up with an actual donation.
In other words we’ll be thumping our chests while in public view but end up keeping our wallets shut in the real life. All empty words and no action...
If so, the IPA 100% will in fact become an empty slogan...
Again, appreciate your thoughts but I disagree with you. I also promise you that 20 years from now when I am a senior captain (If I ever make it to the left seat ) I will feel the same way about it as I do now being a junior pilot. If asked for help, I will follow up 100%…
03-07-2009, 10:01 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 135
Sorry... but my children's braces, their college education, my parents' medications and the charities I currently donate to (which help those that are UNABLE to help themselves) are of a greater financial priority in my life than making sure a furloughed pilot receives a $75,000 furlough stipend (as AW proposed).
Once again... I would have no hesitation in voluntarily donating to a fund. As AW proposes in another thread, he wants to mandatorily confiscate $25,000 (pre-tax) annually from me for this fund. I find that offensive, to say the least.
Joe
Once again... I would have no hesitation in voluntarily donating to a fund. As AW proposes in another thread, he wants to mandatorily confiscate $25,000 (pre-tax) annually from me for this fund. I find that offensive, to say the least.
Joe
03-07-2009, 10:03 AM
#10
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Posts: 3,333
Originally Posted by Avg Joe
Sorry... but my children's braces, their college education, my parents' medications and the charities I currently donate to (which help those that are UNABLE to help themselves) are of a greater financial priority in my life than making sure a furloughed pilot receives a $75,000 furlough stipend (as AW proposed).
Once again... I would have no hesitation in voluntarily donating to a fund. As AW proposes in another thread, he wants to mandatorily confiscate $25,000 (pre-tax) annually from me for this fund. I find that offensive, to say the least.
Joe
Once again... I would have no hesitation in voluntarily donating to a fund. As AW proposes in another thread, he wants to mandatorily confiscate $25,000 (pre-tax) annually from me for this fund. I find that offensive, to say the least.
Joe
Also, as I stated in a previous post (where I was just speculating on how much it could cost) I came up with $750 a month, not sure where you get 25K a year?
Remember, I have no idea how much it would cost or how much we would be paying out. This thread is about the idea of "Taking Care Of Our Own." I'll let the pros such as Salty to deal with the details...
Again, that was just an idea to point out that since they'd still be 2,500 pilots left after a (possible) furlough the cost per person wouldn't be astronomical...
IF the EB chooses a pay cut instead it’d cost us much more in the long run…
Last edited by ⌐ AV8OR WANNABE; 03-07-2009 at 10:20 AM.
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