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MX727 03-18-2009 07:56 AM

FFDO program in trouble?
 
Washington Times - EDITORIAL: Guns on a plane


EDITORIAL: Guns on a plane

Obama secretly ends program that let pilots carry guns


Tuesday, March 17, 2009




After the September 11 attacks, commercial airline pilots were allowed to carry guns if they completed a federal-safety program. No longer would unarmed pilots be defenseless as remorseless hijackers seized control of aircraft and rammed them into buildings.

Now President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology.

The Obama administration this past week diverted some $2 million from the pilot training program to hire more supervisory staff, who will engage in field inspections of pilots.

This looks like completely unnecessary harassment of the pilots. The 12,000 Federal Flight Deck Officers, the pilots who have been approved to carry guns, are reported to have the best behavior of any federal law enforcement agency. There are no cases where any of them has improperly brandished or used a gun. There are just a few cases where officers have improperly used their IDs.

Fewer than one percent of the officers have any administrative actions brought against them and, we are told, virtually all of those cases “are trumped up.”

Take a case against one flight officer who had visited the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles within the last few weeks. While there, the pilot noticed that federal law enforcement officers can, with the approval of a superior, obtain a license plate that cannot be traced, a key safety feature for law enforcement personnel. So the pilot asked if, as a member of the federal program, he was eligible. The DMV staffer checked and said “no.” The next day administrative actions were brought against the pilot for “misrepresenting himself.” These are the kinds of cases that President Obama wants to investigate.

Since Mr. Obama's election, pilots have told us that the approval process for letting pilots carry guns on planes slowed significantly. Last week the problem went from bad to worse. Federal Flight Deck Officers - the pilots who have been approved to carry guns - indicate that the approval process has stalled out.

Pilots cannot openly speak about the changing policies for fear of retaliation from the Transportation Security Administration. Pilots who act in any way that causes a “loss of confidence” in the armed pilot program risk criminal prosecution as well as their removal from the program. Despite these threats, pilots in the Federal Flight Deck Officers program have raised real concerns in multiple interviews.

Arming pilots after Sept. 11 was nothing new. Until the early 1960s, American commercial passenger pilots on any flight carrying U.S. mail were required to carry handguns. Indeed, U.S. pilots were still allowed to carry guns until as recently as 1987. There are no records that any of these pilots (either military or commercial) ever causing any significant problems.

Screening of airplane passengers is hardly perfect. While armed marshals are helpful, the program covers less than 3 percent of the flights out of Washington D.C.'s three airports and even fewer across the country. Sky marshals are costly and quit more often than other law-enforcement officers.

Armed pilots are a cost-effective backup layer of security. Terrorists can only enter the cockpit through one narrow entrance, and armed pilots have some time to prepare themselves as hijackers penetrate the strengthened cockpit doors. With pilots, we have people who are willing to take on the burden of protecting the planes for free. About 70 percent of the pilots at major American carriers have military backgrounds.

Frankly, as a matter of pure politics, we cannot understand what the administration is thinking. Nearly 40 House Democrats are in districts were the NRA is more popular than House Speaker Nancy Pelosi. We can't find any independent poll in which the public is demanding that pilots disarm. Why does this move make sense?

Only anti-gun extremists and terrorist recruits are worried about armed pilots. So why is the Obama administration catering to this tiny lobby at the expense of public safety?

HazCan 03-18-2009 08:33 AM

TSA Reconfirms Commitment to FFDO Program March 17, 2009 In stark contrast to an op-ed article in today’s edition (March 17, 2009) of the Washington Times, that claims “…President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology,” TSA officials reassured ALPA they are committed to the FFDO program and have plans for its expansion. TSA’s leadership immediately contacted ALPA and requested a meeting to discuss this news report. ALPA representatives met with TSA executives this afternoon and were told that TSA embraces the FFDO program, that there are no plans to reduce or restrict its growth, and that the agency fully intends to grow and expand the program.
Government representatives acknowledged that the program needs additional funding to achieve these goals, and that they are actively pursuing sources of additional funding. These funds will be used to enhance the program’s management structure and oversight, which if implemented, will address an ALPA Board of Directors security priority.
TSA is currently training hundreds of pilots each year and plans to continue to train at least that number or more into the future. The size of the FFDO cadre has grown so large that additional resources are needed to provide greater structure and oversight to this important program, which TSA referred to today as “an important layer of defense.”
“ALPA is very pleased that the TSA was so proactive in communicating its concerns to the Association and we are likewise pleased that we are able to report this good news to the membership,” said ALPA President, Capt. John Prater. “ALPA values its relationship with the TSA, and it is obvious from the way the agency handled this event that the feeling is mutual.”
Stay tuned.

FDXLAG 03-18-2009 08:47 AM

Of course the DOD has refused to sell used brass to anyone unless they destroy it's reload capability thus:

Reducing the value the DOD gets for the brass.

Increase the cost of the amunition that DOD buys.

Double the cost of amunition for the average American.

But don't worry, your shotgun is safe (as long as you keep it above the fireplace).

TimoC 03-18-2009 09:09 AM

I wouldn't be surprised if when we get the president's budget details in April we found out that the disarming-pilots idea comes with a side of unionized TSA screeners and an increase in TSA's budget.

IC ALL 03-18-2009 10:22 AM

Political. We don't allow political bashing posts at APC. Thread closed.

IC ALL 03-18-2009 10:36 AM

Thread reopened and infraction given. I know it must be hard, but please leave the political bashing off the the forums. Political discussions are a violation of our TOS. Thanks.

FDX28 03-18-2009 01:29 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 580403)
Of course the DOD has refused to sell used brass to anyone unless they destroy it's reload capability thus:

Reducing the value the DOD gets for the brass.

Increase the cost of the amunition that DOD buys.

Double the cost of amunition for the average American.

But don't worry, your shotgun is safe (as long as you keep it above the fireplace).

Apparently that has been rescinded:)

DAL4EVER 03-18-2009 04:02 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 580403)
Of course the DOD has refused to sell used brass to anyone unless they destroy it's reload capability thus:

Reducing the value the DOD gets for the brass.

Increase the cost of the amunition that DOD buys.

Double the cost of amunition for the average American.

But don't worry, your shotgun is safe (as long as you keep it above the fireplace).

How does this correlate with the FFDO program?

FDXLAG 03-18-2009 04:12 PM


Originally Posted by DAL4EVER (Post 580596)
How does this correlate with the FFDO program?

Does the FFDO program use amunition?

DAL4EVER 03-18-2009 04:16 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 580600)
Does the FFDO program use amunition?

Yeah I get that part. But how does my shotgun above the mantle play into what the FFDO pays for ammo?

MX727 03-18-2009 04:33 PM


Originally Posted by HazCan (Post 580392)
TSA Reconfirms Commitment to FFDO Program March 17, 2009 In stark contrast to an op-ed article in today’s edition (March 17, 2009) of the Washington Times, that claims “…President Obama is quietly ending the federal firearms program, risking public safety on airlines in the name of an anti-gun ideology,” TSA officials reassured ALPA they are committed to the FFDO program and have plans for its expansion.
Stay tuned.

Good news, lets hope this is the correct story.

TimoC 03-18-2009 04:36 PM

It's just another dot for us to connect after the next terrorist attack.

Fedex999999 03-18-2009 04:42 PM

Haven't you heard? They are not terrorist attacks. They are "man made disasters". Or so says the Department of Homeland Security.

TimoC 03-18-2009 04:45 PM

... I almost forgot about the nitwit who said that...

renman95 03-18-2009 05:29 PM

So what are we to do now...throw our crew meals at the 7500-terrorist? Keep the crash axe near our flight bag? We can't comment because someone might get their PC feelings hurt. We are going back in time. History will repeat because some have forgotten and buried history. Wait until the terrorists get hold of this news. Why don't they just take my nads while they're at it? Stupid sheeple.

byebyeairlines 03-18-2009 07:37 PM


Originally Posted by renman95 (Post 580650)
So what are we to do now...throw our crew meals at the 7500-terrorist? Keep the crash axe near our flight bag? We can't comment because someone might get their PC feelings hurt. We are going back in time. History will repeat because some have forgotten and buried history. Wait until the terrorists get hold of this news. Why don't they just take my nads while they're at it? Stupid sheeple.

Amen! More are going to have to die, unfortunately. Maybe we will remember longer than a few years the next time it happens.

StallFail 03-18-2009 07:53 PM


Originally Posted by byebyeairlines (Post 580705)
Amen! More are going to have to die, unfortunately. Maybe we will remember longer than a few years the next time it happens.

I can't believe removing the program is even on the table. You're right, it seems like the world has forgotten. Instead of removing the program the budget should be increased and FFDO's treated like real LEO's.

BTW, my politically incorrect post was removed earlier... I guess the APC mods are Obama fans.

aircraftdriver 03-18-2009 08:00 PM


Originally Posted by IC ALL (Post 580454)
Political. We don't allow political bashing posts at APC. Thread closed.

How is that comment political?

byebyeairlines 03-18-2009 09:31 PM

APC should allow respectful dissent on any topic. I understand this is a site for aviation related topics, but when an aviation related topic like this comes up; all opinions, as long as, respectful should be permitted. Lighten up APC monitors or you'll risk looking like you are choosing sides in political discussions; which in itself is being outwardly political. Stiffling speech isn't what this site should be about as long as it is done with respect. I'm out!

LivingInMEM 03-18-2009 10:01 PM


Originally Posted by DAL4EVER (Post 580605)
Yeah I get that part. But how does my shotgun above the mantle play into what the FFDO pays for ammo?

Really, is that a serious question?

The cancellation of the FFDO program has the undertones of anti-gun agenda, there have been nothing but positive reviews of the program and the TSA/FAM's are strongly behind the program. Even with the few buffoonerous acts of a few FFDO's, the program is still much less plagued by buffonerous acts when compared to other LEO fields. FFDO coverage of total flights is magnitudes above other federal LEO coverage and the cost is literally pennies on the dollar.

The cancellation of brass sales has undertones of an anti-gun agenda in ultimately raising ammunition prices.

Note: they both seem to be part of an anti-gun agenda.

There was a famous quote during the campaign by an individual (in an attempt to dissuade 2nd amendment concerns) that "Obama is not going to take my shotguns".

newKnow 03-18-2009 10:16 PM

Are pilots from the cargo carriers allowed to be in the FFDO program?

767pilot 03-18-2009 10:21 PM


Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 580767)
Are pilots from the cargo carriers allowed to be in the FFDO program?

yes they are

767pilot 03-18-2009 10:23 PM


Originally Posted by IC ALL (Post 580460)
Thread reopened and infraction given. I know it must be hard, but please leave the political bashing off the the forums. Political discussions are a violation of our TOS. Thanks.

We allowed to bash the Washington Times? Pretty shabby reporting from the Rev. Moon's outfit. It didn't take too long for this article to be debunked. Still didn't stop a few guys for going off half cocked about losing thier guns and the FFDO program itself.

newKnow 03-18-2009 10:34 PM


Originally Posted by 767pilot (Post 580769)
We allowed to bash the Washington Times? Pretty shabby reporting from the Rev. Moon's outfit. It didn't take too long for this article to be debunked. Still didn't stop a few guys for going off half cocked about losing thier guns and the FFDO program itself.

Which is kind of funny. Diverting funds for supervisory staff for the program is hardly shutting the program down.

jungle 03-18-2009 10:35 PM


Originally Posted by 767pilot (Post 580769)
We allowed to bash the Washington Times? Pretty shabby reporting from the Rev. Moon's outfit. It didn't take too long for this article to be debunked. Still didn't stop a few guys for going off half cocked about losing thier guns and the FFDO program itself.


http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...Bob-749336.jpg

Trust me my friend, ALPA and the TSA have a very firm grip on the situation! No worries!

767pilot 03-18-2009 10:36 PM


Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 580772)
Which is kind of funny. Diverting funds for supervisory staff for the program is hardly shutting the program down.

not to get too political about it, but the things that they are mentioning began when there was another guy in the white house.

newKnow 03-18-2009 10:40 PM


Originally Posted by 767pilot (Post 580774)
not to get too political about it, but the things that they are mentioning began when there was another guy in the white house.

Like I said, it's funny. :D (No really, it is.)

Or wait. Maybe it's sad. :(

JayDee 03-19-2009 01:28 AM


Originally Posted by jungle (Post 580773)
http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/f...Bob-749336.jpg

Trust me my friend, ALPA and the TSA have a very firm grip on the situation! No worries!

You really like this photo dont you...

Zapata 03-19-2009 01:38 AM


Originally Posted by LivingInMEM (Post 580762)
The cancellation of the FFDO program has the undertones of anti-gun agenda,

The cancellation of brass sales has undertones of an anti-gun agenda in ultimately raising ammunition prices.

Note: they both seem to be part of an anti-gun agenda.

Pure knee-jerk reaction paranoia.

Zapata 03-19-2009 01:48 AM


Originally Posted by newKnow (Post 580767)
Are pilots from the cargo carriers allowed to be in the FFDO program?


Why would a cargo pilot want to be an FFDO? Yeah yeah, I know....jumpseaters, couriers etc. However, they're a very minimal risk. I believe the answer is that they like the badge and gun and it is not for any noble reasons.

Knots2you 03-19-2009 02:06 AM

I would say that it is even more important for a cargo pilot to be armed, for reasons that are obvious to any cargo pilot.

FreightDawgyDog 03-19-2009 02:32 AM


Originally Posted by Zapata (Post 580799)
Why would a cargo pilot want to be an FFDO? Yeah yeah, I know....jumpseaters, couriers etc. However, they're a very minimal risk. I believe the answer is that they like the badge and gun and it is not for any noble reasons.

Seriously? You know what I believe? It is better to be thought of as a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Archie Bunker 03-19-2009 02:40 AM


Originally Posted by Zapata (Post 580799)
Why would a cargo pilot want to be an FFDO? Yeah yeah, I know....jumpseaters, couriers etc. However, they're a very minimal risk. I believe the answer is that they like the badge and gun and it is not for any noble reasons.

Yeah, you're right Zapata...a gun and a badge is the only reason that I sacrificed my time and money to jump through all the hoops that it took to become an FFDO. The chicks really dig the badge, and I get free dinner and drinks all across the country. It really doesn't have anything to do with increasing the level of security where I work...nah. Dang, there's no fooling you...I'm such a fraud!

I mean, you're right...it would be impossible for someone to stowaway onboard a cargo aircraft, and then attack the crew inflight. It could never happen.

Oh yeah...and a jumpseater would never turn into a psychopath (FedEx 705), and attack the crew with the intention of crashing the plane into corporate headquarters. It could never happen. Well, I guess it only happened just that one time...no biggie though.

I've got a great idea. Why don't we put you in charge of the TSA? You've already got it all figured out...which pilots have noble reasons for becoming a FFDO, and which ones are in it only for the badges, guns, free meals, and chicks (like myself). With your expertise at the helm of this fine organization, I'm sure you will transform it into a lean, mean iron clad wall of security for the traveling public, while ridding the ranks of all us cargo pilot slackers.

Many thanks for pointing this out to the masses here at APC

767pilot 03-19-2009 03:21 AM

I want it because some of the guys in the right seat have guns. If they go berserk, I want to be able to shoot back!

FDXLAG 03-19-2009 04:06 AM


Originally Posted by Zapata (Post 580797)
Pure knee-jerk reaction paranoia.


So give me one (logical) reason why you would restrict the sale of used brass to non munitions use?

767pilot 03-19-2009 04:23 AM

never mind

MX727 03-19-2009 04:36 AM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 580810)
So give me one (logical) reason why you would restrict the sale of used brass to non munitions use?

It's not restricted for .50 and under unless the brass is to be exported. The problem started when a middle level shoe clerk misinterpreted the DRMO regulation and notified buyers that they no longer would be able to buy brass that had not been crushed. He was wrong. Brass is back in the pipeline.

767pilot 03-19-2009 05:16 AM

the conspiracy to get rid of guns sounds a whole lot cooler

FDXLAG 03-19-2009 05:32 AM


Originally Posted by 767pilot (Post 580831)
the conspiracy to get rid of guns sounds a whole lot cooler


Because it is utterly preposterous to think that Nancy wants to get rid of guns?

JetPiedmont 03-19-2009 06:06 AM


Originally Posted by 767pilot (Post 580807)
I want it because some of the guys in the right seat have guns. If they go berserk, I want to be able to shoot back!

Are you that difficult to fly with?:D


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