MD-11 FLYING at other Carriers
04-03-2009, 04:54 PM
#71
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
If you two (the lovefest brothers) want to continue this tirade then please move it and keep it at the PM level.
The thread is approaching the point wher e it is closed and all worthwile discussion lost because of semantics.
Btw - IMO - and I don't even know much about the particular incident other than what I have read on this thread - I would have to ask WHY the entertainment system caught on fire if I was looking to final casual factors. Was it maintenance action in the installation? On one Class A that I was a apart of the 1st causal factor went back a year or so before the actual mishap when a Depot Level Maintainer over torque a lock nut on a hydraulic acuator. Also - on the question of pilot actions past the initiating factor - everything they did will at least be examined - and either accepted or rejected - as a casual factor.
In any case - please keep the post either on the original track or this alternate track - but in any case leave the emotions and the personal attacks off the forum.
USMCFLYR
The thread is approaching the point wher e it is closed and all worthwile discussion lost because of semantics.
Btw - IMO - and I don't even know much about the particular incident other than what I have read on this thread - I would have to ask WHY the entertainment system caught on fire if I was looking to final casual factors. Was it maintenance action in the installation? On one Class A that I was a apart of the 1st causal factor went back a year or so before the actual mishap when a Depot Level Maintainer over torque a lock nut on a hydraulic acuator. Also - on the question of pilot actions past the initiating factor - everything they did will at least be examined - and either accepted or rejected - as a casual factor.
In any case - please keep the post either on the original track or this alternate track - but in any case leave the emotions and the personal attacks off the forum.
USMCFLYR
04-03-2009, 06:43 PM
#72
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
USMC, I disagree, this thread has been quite educational. It has proven that with all of the information at our disposal and with all of the money spent on these investigations, their are still so-called professional pilots who refuse to educate themselves on the mishaps of the past in order to prevent the mishaps of the future.
The aviation community is full of mis-information that is better classified as a willful ignorance in a lot of incidents, whether it is the mis-statement of the prioritization of an aircrew or the ability of the crew to have ever been able to safely recover the aircraft in the first place. As a Part-121 instructor, I spent a good portion of my time clarifying falsehoods from students about past incidents that could have easily been solved with a minimal amount of effort on their part. I have also had to address a few instances of instructors spreading erroneous information, information that they heard (some from within the company) and never bothered to verify.
People are all over the Major, Regional, and Cargo boards arguing over why they aren't being treated like they professionals that they are. Well, here is just one symptom of a condition that is not known as professionalism. You are not being professional concerning the safety of your craft when the most often cited responses are: "and how much time do you have in this aircraft", "I have been flying this aircraft for X years, and I have never had a problem", "IIRC this and/or that occurred (and you don't recall correctly), or something that does not resemble the truth at all.
Say what you want about these responses, but I would not feel comfortable with my doctor if this was a board on medical procedures and some of these responses were attributed to him. I would not appreciate a doctor not having the professional curiosity to be as knowledgeable about all of the possible downsides of his particular procedures or not being open-minded about always being ready to learn more. Go talk to a doctor and throw out a potential concern about a treatment or procedure, have the doctor ask you how many times you have done that procedure, and see how good you feel about it. In reality, I would expect that a doctor would throw out a particular concern and other doctors would either factually try to prove or disprove the concern or would try to do some research to do either.
Want to be treated like a professional, act like it. We get paid what your perceived worth is and what we bring to the table. This is outside the scope of this thread, but it is what I learned.
The aviation community is full of mis-information that is better classified as a willful ignorance in a lot of incidents, whether it is the mis-statement of the prioritization of an aircrew or the ability of the crew to have ever been able to safely recover the aircraft in the first place. As a Part-121 instructor, I spent a good portion of my time clarifying falsehoods from students about past incidents that could have easily been solved with a minimal amount of effort on their part. I have also had to address a few instances of instructors spreading erroneous information, information that they heard (some from within the company) and never bothered to verify.
People are all over the Major, Regional, and Cargo boards arguing over why they aren't being treated like they professionals that they are. Well, here is just one symptom of a condition that is not known as professionalism. You are not being professional concerning the safety of your craft when the most often cited responses are: "and how much time do you have in this aircraft", "I have been flying this aircraft for X years, and I have never had a problem", "IIRC this and/or that occurred (and you don't recall correctly), or something that does not resemble the truth at all.
Say what you want about these responses, but I would not feel comfortable with my doctor if this was a board on medical procedures and some of these responses were attributed to him. I would not appreciate a doctor not having the professional curiosity to be as knowledgeable about all of the possible downsides of his particular procedures or not being open-minded about always being ready to learn more. Go talk to a doctor and throw out a potential concern about a treatment or procedure, have the doctor ask you how many times you have done that procedure, and see how good you feel about it. In reality, I would expect that a doctor would throw out a particular concern and other doctors would either factually try to prove or disprove the concern or would try to do some research to do either.
Want to be treated like a professional, act like it. We get paid what your perceived worth is and what we bring to the table. This is outside the scope of this thread, but it is what I learned.
04-03-2009, 08:21 PM
#73
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,837
[QUOTE]I agree...which is why the thread hasn't been closed.
If the community enjoys the educational thread - then let's keep the comments within the TOS. It would actually be even better if the community would police its own on the forum.
Oh wait....I guess I should have read the entire post first.
Well....since mishaps and the chain that leads to them often have differing opinions then I guess that we'll just have to accept that some people on a public forum might view the exact same thing from totally different perspective. The "truth" as you say usually lies somewhere in the middle.
If by posting this piece you are trying to point out that one or the other of the "lovefest" players is not being professional in some way or another, I would point out that I am not talking about the subject of the discussion as much as I am talking about its' presentation.
I expect respectful discussion on any topic.
USMCFLYR
If the community enjoys the educational thread - then let's keep the comments within the TOS. It would actually be even better if the community would police its own on the forum.
Oh wait....I guess I should have read the entire post first.
Well....since mishaps and the chain that leads to them often have differing opinions then I guess that we'll just have to accept that some people on a public forum might view the exact same thing from totally different perspective. The "truth" as you say usually lies somewhere in the middle.
If by posting this piece you are trying to point out that one or the other of the "lovefest" players is not being professional in some way or another, I would point out that I am not talking about the subject of the discussion as much as I am talking about its' presentation.
I expect respectful discussion on any topic.
USMCFLYR
04-03-2009, 10:06 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 829
pro·fes·sion·al·ism / prəˈfeshənlˌizəm/ • n. the competence or skill expected of a professional, characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession
I am referring to the how, not the what. The following are not signs of a professional approach to your endeavor: telling you that you are wrong and giving no documentation; providing no reason nor explanation of why opposing documentation is wrong; using hear-say as the sole supporting source of your opinion, especially when the hear-say is wrong; refusing to accept valid input from sources based solely on the fact that they have not manipulated the controls of the aircraft you currently operate, etc.
I am referring to the how, not the what. The following are not signs of a professional approach to your endeavor: telling you that you are wrong and giving no documentation; providing no reason nor explanation of why opposing documentation is wrong; using hear-say as the sole supporting source of your opinion, especially when the hear-say is wrong; refusing to accept valid input from sources based solely on the fact that they have not manipulated the controls of the aircraft you currently operate, etc.
Last edited by LivingInMEM; 04-03-2009 at 11:14 PM.
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