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How Many
 

If UPS does end up putting guys on the street I wonder how many managers will be on the street as well?

Zero zip nada

What Brownie said !

And what's going to STOP them from actually HIRING additional managers if they feel like it ?

nothing ...

Shack!! This is the IPA's Achilles (sp?) heel. Maybe our newly elected president will address the issue (if the election sticks). I'm convinced the favorite candidate of the junior ranks (S.F.) wouldn't have tackled this. If the bottom folks are furloughed then they have nothing to lose by the union putting the full court press on UPS regarding this issue. Obviously, in-action leads to the detriment of those on the seniority list. If UPS furloughs then they should use every avenue to get this resolved. Then I won't have anything to worry about when I get my recall letter :)
I have gone round and round with some of the "wise old owls" on the Bar and Grill and they feel inaction is the best way to sort this out because there is too much at stake if we lose in front of the NMB or an arbitrator. My argument has always been that what more can a junior IPA member lose if he is kicked to the curb for 3-7 years anyway? The perception to me is the senior folks are not wanting to ruffle feathers with the company as long as it doesn't affect them, their paycheck, or quality of life. BWTFDIK

MF

MF

We will lose for sure if RD or SF win this thing, they are tied to the law firm (Katz) that is advising them and the (EB) on the issue. Katz sent a letter in support of UPS to the NMB Chief of staff on December 14, 1995 saying that the Managers are not the same Craft and Class as the crewmembers, their pay structure is totally different, they are not defined in the contract, and so on. I saw the letter, and could probably get a copy... Signed by Katz, and on the document "of counsel" was listed as Trent and Luby.

Sounds like this is a little bit of a problem huh?

We will lose this thing so fast, a furlough will be the least of our problems. They will have a mandate to hire (JUST) managers, and replace us all...

DA

That would be the argument. I say that except for the top 10-15 (maybe less) management types at the company, they are doing EXACTLY the same job that IPA pilots are doing! There is NO difference (except they go directly into a left seat and make alot more money!!)

I hope BT does something about this!!!!

Is this letter available on the IPA site anywhere?

Thank you for getting the letter. I look forward to it being posted on the B and G for healthy debate. If they are not the same "class and craft" then wouldn't the NMB or an arbitrator say that they shouldn't be allowed to do our job? I agree with you about S.F. and R.D.

The problem with that argument is we would lose. IMHO, we would have to show they are the same class and craft (in other words different people doing the same jobs we should be doing, illegally, without seniority.)We have to be able to show every other Airline in the world operates with their line pilots as instructors, training and checking the rest of the line pilots. We actually have the same letter from the FAA for our Check Airman that the Management guys do, because the FAA won't differentiate between the two. IPA pilots do not give released to the line checks, or AQP/CQ checkrides because UPS does not want us to. It's their way of keeping their finger on us. :eek:

Didn't NWA have a clause in their contract, something to the effect of: All training and checking of NWA line pilots will be done by NWA line crewmembers?

As a side note, our contract in Article 1 Scope speaks to whom can fly our stuff, and what the limitations are.People way smarter than me should be able to see we need to fly all the stuff, including the training and checking. The problem is, there is another section in Article 13 that allows Management flying, which may be a problem for using the contract against them.

Apparently BT or the people working with him have had various conversations with Black, the Attorney who won the Dorsey case, (which related to the Katz letter earlier discussed) and he would be willing to litigate the case in front of the NLRB or who ever hears the case. That has to be our best chance of winning this thing, as he has beaten UPS before.

As far as the Katz letter, it will probably come out, but does not necessarily have to, unless BT losses, or their is a re-vote. I think the pilot population would then need to see the letter as they overwhelmingly voted in the Flight Manager thingy, and this would be a slap in the face. I know a few pilots have the letter, and seeing as though BT and his people are aware of it, its water under the bridge.

More Drama....
DA

I don't understand why everyone says we want the managers. We don't. We want the jobs. The managers can organize today on their own if they chose. So far they haven't. IPA can go after the managers all day. We get them and UPS hires more managers to fill the spots then we just have that many more on the list.

I flew with a mangler who doesn't care either way. He's senior to every pilot on the list, but he said you have to make sure to get the jobs not just the pilots.

It's the jobs folks. Don't confuse the two.