Lawmakers demand answers for UPS furlough
08-23-2010, 06:42 AM
#91
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2006
Position: I was acquired, Not Hired
Posts: 1,784
Bob,
I'm going to try to explain my position on this. I've tried in the past and it ended up ugly. However, allow me the stage for 2 minutes and if my point comes across great, if not it just shows my poor Riddler writing skills !!
JA/OT Ban
The solidarity for the JA/OT ban has been amazing-top to bottom. Except for a very small number there has been unprecedented solidarity. The JA/OT ban has succeeded in changing the company's staffing formula. The projected savings on paper are now out the window. However, furloughs will continue.
What's Next
Bob, this is where you and I got cross-eyed. I have maintained that the furlough affects everyone but it affects the bottom 300 the most. If your neighbor's house burnt to the ground, you would feel bad for him, you'd offer him help and yes it would affect you. Fair enough, but the affect is greater on the neighbor.
Bob, you and many senior guys are doing your part in a variety of ways. However, my rants content that more can be done. I failed to acknowledge your efforts and in turn offended you. Fair enough, I apologize. However, just like the difference between you and the neighbor who's house burnt down the effect is different.
Before you respond, allow me the stage for just another minute or two. The furlough affects most everyone. However, in theory only, what would happen if after the next contract we all took a paycut (I know that seems very unlikley, but so did the furlough). But a paycut affects everyone not just the bottom 300. Or, it would be like everyone's house burnt down, not just your neighbor.
So now, every Capt (onboard CEO) would be a victim and their way of operating an aircraft would be different. Same work for less money, yes every onboard-CEO would be angry.
My point has always been (albeit I explained it poorly), is that we all have state clearly to the company that any furlough, paycut, scope violation, or any other detriment will be treated as if they are burning down OUR house.
IMHO, the company has set a secondary goal of the furlough to test the reaction of the Union for upcoming negos. They hoped by furloughing the junior folks, it would invoke a division within the ranks. They were hoping for comments like, "Why shouldn't I pick-up time, it doesn't affect me"-or- "I only have a few months left they'll never furlough me", etc. They were hoping for a weakening, when in fact we have come together. Where you and I came to headbutts, was that I contend we need to treat this situation as if the company was burning down all of our houses. I used a paycut as an analogy, because that affects everyone moreso than the furlough. This way, the company knows that any nonsensical harm it wants to inflict upon our union will be met with a strong and stern reaction by all.
Bob, I hope I explained myself correctly. If not, skip the rest of this.
Where do we go from Here ?
With 100 years of Momentum (LOL) and profits that are hard to argue with, saving money through efficiencies suggested by the rank-and-file are sparse. "We've done it this way for 100 years, why should we change".
However, two factors working against UPS Airlines are:
1. It's a trucking company and many aviation problems are solved with trucking solutions.
2. The airline has only been around for 22 to 24 years roughly, and when solutions are suggested from the rank and file (derived from past work in the Military or the passenger airlines which have been around long before UPS Airlines) they are dismissed.
Summary
The reaction to the furlough should be just like if UPS had burned all of our houses down. I recognize the efforts of those not in the crosshairs, my comments may have suggested I didn't, however; I think the fervor would be different if this excercise affected everyone without prejudice to their hire date.
Second, this furlough had a secondary goal of measuring our reaction to form a precedence for contract negotiations. Will we crumble, will we all hold the line, will the packages stop moving, will we strike. IMHO, the company is answering many of these questions by our reaction to the furlough.
Finally, the company's corporate personality prevents it from achieving saving except through "burning down houses". You can save money by never changing the oil in your car -or- you can save money by tuning it up. "Tuning it up" would involve input from the rank-and-file which in the long-run would better the corporate personality but would threaten many as a loss of corporate control. Hopefully our reaction to a furlough, a scope violation, a paycut or whatever would teach them a lesson that they actually lose control when they try to overcontrol.
Bob et. al., these are my points. If I explained them wrong, offended you, or they don't make sense, then "yes" I need to work on my writing skills. My only point is the furlough is actually an attempt to burn all of our houses down.
Respectfully,
FF
I'm going to try to explain my position on this. I've tried in the past and it ended up ugly. However, allow me the stage for 2 minutes and if my point comes across great, if not it just shows my poor Riddler writing skills !!
JA/OT Ban
The solidarity for the JA/OT ban has been amazing-top to bottom. Except for a very small number there has been unprecedented solidarity. The JA/OT ban has succeeded in changing the company's staffing formula. The projected savings on paper are now out the window. However, furloughs will continue.
What's Next
Bob, this is where you and I got cross-eyed. I have maintained that the furlough affects everyone but it affects the bottom 300 the most. If your neighbor's house burnt to the ground, you would feel bad for him, you'd offer him help and yes it would affect you. Fair enough, but the affect is greater on the neighbor.
Bob, you and many senior guys are doing your part in a variety of ways. However, my rants content that more can be done. I failed to acknowledge your efforts and in turn offended you. Fair enough, I apologize. However, just like the difference between you and the neighbor who's house burnt down the effect is different.
Before you respond, allow me the stage for just another minute or two. The furlough affects most everyone. However, in theory only, what would happen if after the next contract we all took a paycut (I know that seems very unlikley, but so did the furlough). But a paycut affects everyone not just the bottom 300. Or, it would be like everyone's house burnt down, not just your neighbor.
So now, every Capt (onboard CEO) would be a victim and their way of operating an aircraft would be different. Same work for less money, yes every onboard-CEO would be angry.
My point has always been (albeit I explained it poorly), is that we all have state clearly to the company that any furlough, paycut, scope violation, or any other detriment will be treated as if they are burning down OUR house.
IMHO, the company has set a secondary goal of the furlough to test the reaction of the Union for upcoming negos. They hoped by furloughing the junior folks, it would invoke a division within the ranks. They were hoping for comments like, "Why shouldn't I pick-up time, it doesn't affect me"-or- "I only have a few months left they'll never furlough me", etc. They were hoping for a weakening, when in fact we have come together. Where you and I came to headbutts, was that I contend we need to treat this situation as if the company was burning down all of our houses. I used a paycut as an analogy, because that affects everyone moreso than the furlough. This way, the company knows that any nonsensical harm it wants to inflict upon our union will be met with a strong and stern reaction by all.
Bob, I hope I explained myself correctly. If not, skip the rest of this.
Where do we go from Here ?
With 100 years of Momentum (LOL) and profits that are hard to argue with, saving money through efficiencies suggested by the rank-and-file are sparse. "We've done it this way for 100 years, why should we change".
However, two factors working against UPS Airlines are:
1. It's a trucking company and many aviation problems are solved with trucking solutions.
2. The airline has only been around for 22 to 24 years roughly, and when solutions are suggested from the rank and file (derived from past work in the Military or the passenger airlines which have been around long before UPS Airlines) they are dismissed.
Summary
The reaction to the furlough should be just like if UPS had burned all of our houses down. I recognize the efforts of those not in the crosshairs, my comments may have suggested I didn't, however; I think the fervor would be different if this excercise affected everyone without prejudice to their hire date.
Second, this furlough had a secondary goal of measuring our reaction to form a precedence for contract negotiations. Will we crumble, will we all hold the line, will the packages stop moving, will we strike. IMHO, the company is answering many of these questions by our reaction to the furlough.
Finally, the company's corporate personality prevents it from achieving saving except through "burning down houses". You can save money by never changing the oil in your car -or- you can save money by tuning it up. "Tuning it up" would involve input from the rank-and-file which in the long-run would better the corporate personality but would threaten many as a loss of corporate control. Hopefully our reaction to a furlough, a scope violation, a paycut or whatever would teach them a lesson that they actually lose control when they try to overcontrol.
Bob et. al., these are my points. If I explained them wrong, offended you, or they don't make sense, then "yes" I need to work on my writing skills. My only point is the furlough is actually an attempt to burn all of our houses down.
Respectfully,
FF
Last edited by FliFast; 08-23-2010 at 10:45 AM.
08-23-2010, 09:10 AM
#92
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: MD11 CPT
Posts: 1,077
Actually, aside from a couple minor grammar/spelling errors, one of if not your best efforts ever. Cogent, focused and very succinct. (I can't stop busting your balls cold turkey, just messing with you).
We're in the same book now, just different chapters. We both now know we're reading "How To Earn a Living From Short Sighted Sociopaths", we just may be following slightly different chapters.
Our M.O. on the line is not in dispute. That and the solidarity of the group has got us this far...yet again better than any group has done in history.
This whole folly of theirs was to gut our contract and render IPA impotent but still shackled by parts of the contract they like. IMO it's a mult-tiered, or staged if you will effort.
Stage one was to float the idea of furlough and sit back to watch us implode. Even with a contentious election looming, they failed.
Stage two was to reluctantly agree to the MOU, with IMO no long term plan to abide by to it (like raise the bar arbitrarily and argue about numbers). Absolutely we came up short (I'm still bummed about that, but that's history). If their true goal was what they stated (a lie) they would have taken the deal with the caveat that we ran another sign up later, and we and they enhanced early retirements. The staffing flexibility and in-hand savings would have given them tremendous agility to deal with things like this up-turn in business. But as I said, that was never their goal...they want to gut this contract and cripple us like they have the mechanics. Their negotiations are dragging out largely because they are fragmented and relative to us low cost. Yet the company has them handcuffed with their work rules, the RLA and the lameness of Teamsters (I was one once...useless). They thought the whole process plus the election would break us...they failed again.
Stage three, pull the trigger with the furlough and RIF madness. Multiple small groups and RIF bids. Turn 70% of the group's lives upside down in varying degrees. Send the FQS' out with demoralizing rumors. Mess with hotels, catering, reimbursements. Intentionally build lines that are un-commutable. Fire a few guys.
That failed.
Now they're getting desperate. Pull down flight information then a day later reduce furloughs...
"See, it's all better now guys, save us from ourselves."
This will fail even more miserably than the first three stages IMO.
Stage four is to start negotiations early with of course the carrot that if we take less they'll (as a favor to us since they're so swell) recall faster.
My strategy has always been not to give them what they want UNTIL we get ours. Quid pro quo only works with honorable opponents...not sociopaths. Unlike the mechanics our grip on their balls is tightening and it hurts. We're approaching their precious peak. The shipping industry continues to improve.
My message to UPS is, no discussion of big ticket items until everyone that wants back is. Until then we tighten the grip until their balls turn blue. And in the meantime Fed Ex (and their CEO who hates UPS and loves to upstage them) may actually help our cause.
Dude...I'm not saying you're wrong, and I get your point. I guess I'm just a shade more cynical when it comes to doing business with sociopaths.
We're cool.
We're in the same book now, just different chapters. We both now know we're reading "How To Earn a Living From Short Sighted Sociopaths", we just may be following slightly different chapters.
Our M.O. on the line is not in dispute. That and the solidarity of the group has got us this far...yet again better than any group has done in history.
This whole folly of theirs was to gut our contract and render IPA impotent but still shackled by parts of the contract they like. IMO it's a mult-tiered, or staged if you will effort.
Stage one was to float the idea of furlough and sit back to watch us implode. Even with a contentious election looming, they failed.
Stage two was to reluctantly agree to the MOU, with IMO no long term plan to abide by to it (like raise the bar arbitrarily and argue about numbers). Absolutely we came up short (I'm still bummed about that, but that's history). If their true goal was what they stated (a lie) they would have taken the deal with the caveat that we ran another sign up later, and we and they enhanced early retirements. The staffing flexibility and in-hand savings would have given them tremendous agility to deal with things like this up-turn in business. But as I said, that was never their goal...they want to gut this contract and cripple us like they have the mechanics. Their negotiations are dragging out largely because they are fragmented and relative to us low cost. Yet the company has them handcuffed with their work rules, the RLA and the lameness of Teamsters (I was one once...useless). They thought the whole process plus the election would break us...they failed again.
Stage three, pull the trigger with the furlough and RIF madness. Multiple small groups and RIF bids. Turn 70% of the group's lives upside down in varying degrees. Send the FQS' out with demoralizing rumors. Mess with hotels, catering, reimbursements. Intentionally build lines that are un-commutable. Fire a few guys.
That failed.
Now they're getting desperate. Pull down flight information then a day later reduce furloughs...
"See, it's all better now guys, save us from ourselves."
This will fail even more miserably than the first three stages IMO.
Stage four is to start negotiations early with of course the carrot that if we take less they'll (as a favor to us since they're so swell) recall faster.
My strategy has always been not to give them what they want UNTIL we get ours. Quid pro quo only works with honorable opponents...not sociopaths. Unlike the mechanics our grip on their balls is tightening and it hurts. We're approaching their precious peak. The shipping industry continues to improve.
My message to UPS is, no discussion of big ticket items until everyone that wants back is. Until then we tighten the grip until their balls turn blue. And in the meantime Fed Ex (and their CEO who hates UPS and loves to upstage them) may actually help our cause.
Dude...I'm not saying you're wrong, and I get your point. I guess I'm just a shade more cynical when it comes to doing business with sociopaths.
We're cool.
Last edited by Sideshow Bob; 08-24-2010 at 06:23 AM.
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