What dual tax claim? All I said is that if the company opens CGN without the TA, then there wouldn't be tax equalization (this should make some on APC who think it is terrible happy) because it is not in the current contract. I also don't think someone who has held WB captain for 8 years would bid the 757 in CGN. Didn't you say that a junior FO "might do ok" in CGN without tax equalization? Why wouldn't a captain? I don't know how the german tax system works. Since you seem to have a grasp on it, what would the take home be for both an FO and CAP if they averaged 75 hrs and 91 hrs in 4 and 5 week bid months respectively if they bid CGN without tax equalization? Also, what does "Got war mit" mean?

 

I am sorry it must not have been you that claimed that the would have to pay german and american taxes it must have been some other fear monger yes vote in an earlier post. But the bottomline is the ALPAPAC supported politicos like to tax rich captains at higher tax rate then middle class FO. Now I am not going to research this so I am doing this from memory. The way the tax system works is the US tax foreign exclusion cuts off at about 100K (if you include rent subsidies). After that you are taxed at your normal rate. Consequently someone pulling down 300K has a much higher effective tax rate than someone making 180K. Throw in all the other taxes FICA, MEDICAID, German Soc sec and who knows what a capt take home would be (perhaps the NC should). I asked the NC to publish a table for loa 1 that had Tax equalization vs no tax equalization rates, never saw one but I digress.

Maybe ALPA can look in their Archives and see how NW worked the tax issues for their Berlin based pilots wouldnt that be the logical tax starting place for a world class union to start negotiations.

Sorry trying to rember my High School German. It should have been Geh mit Gott.

 

Tax Equalization for dummies (not referencing you...)

With it, in Germany and China, you pay LESS out of your pocket than you would if you did not have it. You would have to pay your US taxes as you listed and also pay ALL of your host country taxes.

If a new hire went to HKG, they MIGHT have a lower tax bill than their "hypothetical" is what i see. Ask any HKG pilot that has been through the process, the tax equalization is a good deal.

good article: Expat Exchange - Tax Advice - Moving Overseas - International Living - International Jobs - Expatriate

 

No argument, I am just curious how the ALPA contract for European Based Pilots handled these Tax issues in the olden days. My guess is it wasnt tax equalization.

 

Good question, I know I have flown with (many years ago) pilots on our property who flew for Pan Am and flew out of the Berlin base. I do not recall any NW base in the EU, do you know how recent that was?

Maybe on of those guys can chime in? Although I think the realization in today's world is that equalization is the standard even if they did something better or worse in the good old days.

 

So now I am a fear mongering yes vote? Didn't I say that I was undecided and just wanted to debate both sides? I guess that would make you a fear mongering no vote. I also said that I didn't understand german taxes, not U.S. taxes. I know the CAP and FO pay the same tax rate on the same AGI of $180k. Again, you were the one that said,

I was just wondering why tax equalization was ok for junior guys and bad for senior guys. Again, I am trying to figure out how much leverage the FDA's are in the TA. It is my contention that our real leverage in LOA 1 was to give it to the company and then no one bid it. That is leverage. Unlike the 777, the company can't assign an FDA in reverse seniority. To have leverage, you have to understand the full worth, that is all I am trying to do.

I could open google translator to see what you are trying to say in German, but for some reason, I don't feel it is worth it.

 

The fearmongering was a joke. I do not think there is any fearmongering going on.

As far as the tax equalization The US tax code is the reason that the JR guys could make out ok with out tax equalization. The more you make over 140K or so the less the foreign tax exclusion helps you. If you are hit by AMT you definitely need tax equalization to survive. Although I suspect most frotune 500 companies treat tax equalization a lot differently.

 

A company wants to open a foreign operation. Because the workers that will be at that operation are unionized, the company has to negotiate the working rules for those employees.

So, they get together with the reps of the workers and hash out an agreement. The agreement is not very favorable to the workers, but the workers are apathetic and dont think it will affect them, so they vote to accept.

Now the company tries to fill the positions that are needed, but have a very hard time due to the nature of the agreement that was passed. To fill these positions, they have to resort to expensive measures that would not have been needed if the original agreement was good enough for the workers to go to this foreign operation. The company probably has learned that the lowball deal will need to be changed when the next negotiations are scheduled. Also, because of new plans in the works considering new foreign operations, the new agreement has to address those concerns.

So time goes by, and it is time for new negotiations. That company now has offered changes to the foreign deal for the employees that looks pretty good. But, they dont care to negotiate any of the other contractual items, saying that due to upcoming govt rule changes, they would like to wait to change the other items later, but for now just want to come to an agreement on the foreign stuff.

To get this passed the workers, they throw in some ancillary changes along with the changes they want for the foreign rules, hoping that the apathetic workers will bite on the changes due to the small improvements given. The workers agree to the new changes.

Later on, the new govt rules are in effect, and it is time to negotiate concerning those, and all the other items left out of the prior negotiations. Unfortunately for the workers, the company will not budge on many things the workers want changed. In the meantime, because of the prior agreement on the foreign workers, the company is making more money due to these changes, which is what they really needed, and feels no urgency to come to any agreements.

Sound likely, and applicable in our situation? Seriously think about it before you vote. Please.

 

Geez!!! Here is a man that appears to know the rules of the game. We also know that we have a very weak ineffective union, but they have deep pockets, that is FedEx pilot's deep pockets. I think I mentioned that during the FPA v ALPA debate.

 

sorry for intruding on this forum.