FDX TA. How can a commuter vote for this?
03-02-2011, 10:37 AM
#11
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: MD11 F/O
Posts: 129
How can we accept the promise that the company will negotiate in good faith after this deal goes through.
Someone once told me that,"you can't make a good deal with a bad person." I am not saying.that the company is evil or anything but over the past 6 years or so they have begun to do things in what might be characterized as "Sneaky." And now we are supposed to sign off on this one time good deal with the artificial time limitation.
- Last contract included numerous easter eggs in terms of the company's interpretation.
- Accepted fares were changed mid contract by what amounts to a parliamentary trick in a two page FCIF that was missed by the crew force and our esteemed lawyers.
-Correct me if I am wrong about this but wasn't the true catalyst for 4a2b the Passover pay agreement that we didn't get to vote on that allowed the company to delay Passover pay years in the future.Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that w/o this agreement 4a2b would have been impossible just because of Passover pay. If this is as well planned as it looks it represents some true chess artistry. I welcome any info from an insider that better explains the Passover pay agreement.
And now we are supposed to accept all these little changes for just 3%. Accepted fares was changed with one sentance right in front of our faces. How many Easter eggs are in this deal.
I am not saying no but there is not enough money in this deal to light my pilot wh0re lamp.
Someone once told me that,"you can't make a good deal with a bad person." I am not saying.that the company is evil or anything but over the past 6 years or so they have begun to do things in what might be characterized as "Sneaky." And now we are supposed to sign off on this one time good deal with the artificial time limitation.
- Last contract included numerous easter eggs in terms of the company's interpretation.
- Accepted fares were changed mid contract by what amounts to a parliamentary trick in a two page FCIF that was missed by the crew force and our esteemed lawyers.
-Correct me if I am wrong about this but wasn't the true catalyst for 4a2b the Passover pay agreement that we didn't get to vote on that allowed the company to delay Passover pay years in the future.Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that w/o this agreement 4a2b would have been impossible just because of Passover pay. If this is as well planned as it looks it represents some true chess artistry. I welcome any info from an insider that better explains the Passover pay agreement.
And now we are supposed to accept all these little changes for just 3%. Accepted fares was changed with one sentance right in front of our faces. How many Easter eggs are in this deal.
I am not saying no but there is not enough money in this deal to light my pilot wh0re lamp.
03-02-2011, 11:04 AM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Airbus F/O
Posts: 78
Originally Posted by Jaxman187
Let me say it before the MEC proxies do. You ill-informed, irrational, angry, selfish, non-volunteering, one issue on line guys just don't get it! You fail to recognize the nuances and extras that make this a great alternative. A long detailed explanation of how this all fits into a carefully orchestrated plan will ensue.
But here is what I hear. You ever meet a guy who has been talked into an inferior substitute by a fast talking salesman. He can spout off horsepower #'s and info about gadgets to the n'th degree. "It's just like the Porche " he will say. But we all know the real answer, "There is no substitute! " This TA is a Cordova with rich Corinthian leather.
But here is what I hear. You ever meet a guy who has been talked into an inferior substitute by a fast talking salesman. He can spout off horsepower #'s and info about gadgets to the n'th degree. "It's just like the Porche " he will say. But we all know the real answer, "There is no substitute! " This TA is a Cordova with rich Corinthian leather.
03-02-2011, 11:19 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Gear Monkey
Posts: 3,193
Originally Posted by Jaxman187
How can we accept the promise that the company will negotiate in good faith after this deal goes through.
Someone once told me that,"you can't make a good deal with a bad person." I am not saying.that the company is evil or anything but over the past 6 years or so they have begun to do things in what might be characterized as "Sneaky." And now we are supposed to sign off on this one time good deal with the artificial time limitation.
- Last contract included numerous easter eggs in terms of the company's interpretation.
- Accepted fares were changed mid contract by what amounts to a parliamentary trick in a two page FCIF that was missed by the crew force and our esteemed lawyers.
-Correct me if I am wrong about this but wasn't the true catalyst for 4a2b the Passover pay agreement that we didn't get to vote on that allowed the company to delay Passover pay years in the future.Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that w/o this agreement 4a2b would have been impossible just because of Passover pay. If this is as well planned as it looks it represents some true chess artistry. I welcome any info from an insider that better explains the Passover pay agreement.
And now we are supposed to accept all these little changes for just 3%. Accepted fares was changed with one sentance right in front of our faces. How many Easter eggs are in this deal.
I am not saying no but there is not enough money in this deal to light my pilot wh0re lamp.
Someone once told me that,"you can't make a good deal with a bad person." I am not saying.that the company is evil or anything but over the past 6 years or so they have begun to do things in what might be characterized as "Sneaky." And now we are supposed to sign off on this one time good deal with the artificial time limitation.
- Last contract included numerous easter eggs in terms of the company's interpretation.
- Accepted fares were changed mid contract by what amounts to a parliamentary trick in a two page FCIF that was missed by the crew force and our esteemed lawyers.
-Correct me if I am wrong about this but wasn't the true catalyst for 4a2b the Passover pay agreement that we didn't get to vote on that allowed the company to delay Passover pay years in the future.Perhaps, I am wrong but it seems to me that w/o this agreement 4a2b would have been impossible just because of Passover pay. If this is as well planned as it looks it represents some true chess artistry. I welcome any info from an insider that better explains the Passover pay agreement.
And now we are supposed to accept all these little changes for just 3%. Accepted fares was changed with one sentance right in front of our faces. How many Easter eggs are in this deal.
I am not saying no but there is not enough money in this deal to light my pilot wh0re lamp.
...or the ability of the company to choose to NOT send some FO Instructors to SO training, even though they had been excessed from their FO seats and those senior to them already went to SO training ---- and then, NOT pay Passover Pay to those senior pilots while those junior pilots remained on FO pay.
(...Oops sorry, those circumstances are not specifically addressed in the contract
)
03-02-2011, 12:56 PM
#15
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: MD11 F/O
Posts: 653
Originally Posted by Flaps50
"Past Practice" is that the argument that the union uses when something isn't going our way? Why can't we use it to oppose policy in the same manner?
03-02-2011, 01:11 PM
#16
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Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 8,047
Originally Posted by MD11HOG
How we lost the accepted fare past practice is a story best and often answered by our folks in contract enforcement. I can't remember the all the details and paragraph quotes. It's not important how we lost, just that we did. And by voting yes we say it's all right, we don't mind, we understand. It's not all right, I do mind, and, I don't understand why it's so hard to fix. I'm not that worked up about the accepted fares issue. I'm not a commuter and the change has only cost me $40. This issue is just one of many improvements with little cost to the company and they want to be hard nosed about it. Safety is the first other issue that comes to mind. They will continue these actions until we speak up. Now is a chance to speak up.
We never grieved it, I wanted to. I provided DT with 2 screen shots one where FDX reduced my bank in direct violation of the contract and one of the pre FOX online expense report help page. It stated you could use the higher of the accepted fare or the scheduled ticket. I was told if I insisted on grieving this it would hurt our secret negotiations on accepted fares. To my shame I caved.
My lesson learned, never trust the union when they are trusting the company.
03-02-2011, 01:12 PM
#17
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: B777 Captain
Posts: 566
Originally Posted by PastV1
I dont think to many people realize that it will be 4 yrs till any of this gets fixed if we vote yes on this TA.
03-02-2011, 01:22 PM
#18
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Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,224
Originally Posted by ptarmigan
That's kind of like those that do not realize that if we vote the TA down, it will be 4 yrs till any of this gets fixed, is it not?
What do we have to lose by voting it down? Time value of a 3% raise and a quarter per diem. I think I can live with it.
What do we have to lose by voting for the TA? Bidpack reduction, which is worth way more than the time value of a 3% raise.
If it takes 4 years, it takes 4 years. Just think of the big back pay check we'll get...
03-02-2011, 01:25 PM
#19
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Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 980
Originally Posted by ptarmigan
That's kind of like those that do not realize that if we vote the TA down, it will be 4 yrs till any of this gets fixed, is it not?
03-02-2011, 04:34 PM
#20
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: MD11 Kitchen Bi*ch
Posts: 263
Originally Posted by FoxHunter
Are you also saying the company will delay the CGN base by 4 years?
How can you tell by looking at the TA? Easy... the current LOA specifically names HKG/CAN and CDG, no other city or locale. The LOA attached to the TA regarding FDAs clearly names all nations outside of Nigeria. In this way, they are correcting their previous error of limiting themselves to specified locations of HKG/CAN and CDG. If we accept this TA, then they can open, at their will without any further modifications a crew base in any of the listed locations.
This LOA alone is the reason why the company was willing to submit these sections (the ones that are rarely contentious anyway) to the crew force for a vote.
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