JLs FO LETTER
 

how did u like JLs letter bashing the FOs...disgraceful!...he talks about all the incidents and accidents..but i remember a couple years ago he dropped a bus gear into the dirt while taxiing..with an lca in the right seat...nice!

This letter just proves the point that I have always made aobut Fedex.

If they just got rid of the pilots, this would be a smooth running airline!

Care to elaborate for us outsiders? Inquiring minds want to know... :D

Supposedly Fred had a lot of mgmt and stds folks over at his office recently wondering why -11 guys are wrecking jets. I guess the "captain diatrabe" and "f/o missive" letters are a response to that "meeting"

Lewis was on the bus?

Can't believe he'd ***** about RFOs and landings. Why doesn't FedEx redo trips so guys can't go months without landings? The trips are just too good to pass up.

bus...11...one of them

Yea I don't think Lewis ever flew the chick machine. I think what you are talking about was a Bus but wasn't Lewis, but it had two Mgmt guys in it.

I hate to admit it but he is right to a certain degree. However, if the system is broke don't ***** at us, they need to get with ALPA and fix the lines. If I am a commutter and I am faced with a double deadhead RFO trip to Europe or Asia single departure line versus a 2 departure no deadhead LAX-AFW am out and back flying line in the LAX bid pack, guess what I am going to pick...They need to mix up the lines a little more. Throw in a good short flying trip along with the RFO trips. Senior guys will bid them then. They are not going to punish themselves flying hubturns if they don't have to.

To some degree I agree with JL too but since we don't have an "up or out" policy I don't really see the point in his missive other than the standard "crap rolls downhill." Guys are not forced out of the seat, they enjoy the comforts of single-digit seniority, they get called for VLT/DRF often..... heck, sounds good to me!

If you keep bumping up against landings or yam up a checkride, YOYO baby. Currently, I'm on notice but it's for vacation followed by a SWEET long HNL/SYD RFO layover. I bid this next sequence so I could get 4 landings like FR8Hauler mentioned above.

I like the big boy philosophy: you know what you're doing by bidding these lines; don't b*tch when you get debriefed by Standards, either out of the sim or on a line check.

He seems a little over the top in both letters to me.

Let me see what the Enders Report says about our saftey culture and then I will be ready to point fingers.

I think there is a much more to the accidents than Jack says is the cause. The EWR guys might have a thing or two to say about the airplane it self, why does the gear break on our MD-10s, no excuse, but TLH has a pretty big fatigue cloud hanging over it.

Jack does not impress me much.

Which is it, should I down bid because I don't want to have the responsibility of Captain, or should I bid Captain and stop flying the gravy RFO lines?

Agreed. The letters sent to each group seem to be at odds with one another, of course they were meant for different audiences.

Never once was it mentioned to me during the application or interview process that I would have to be a captain at some point. The FO job pays well and seniority lets me get the things out of life that I want. To even suggest that the company should force anyone upward is ludicrous.

As far as Enders is concerned, at least we know that the report was generated. If I'm ever involved in an accident I intend on using every avenue available to obtain the results of that report. Apparently the company doesn't believe in the old adage, 'the truth shall set you free.'

Well, we've got the "Captain Diatribe," the "First Officer Missive," and the "Second Officer epistle" -- what a brilliant display of Professional Management philosophies. Take a problem that involves 1% of the crew force, and chew out the other 99% in the process. Let's count the style points together, shall we?


Granted, the 1% problem children consume far more than 1% of his time, but the answer to "the problem," as he so eloquently states it, is not to denegrate those of us who are consumate profesionals and get the job done day in and day out without a hitch. Wanna change that? Try destroying morale by flaming on every employee under you on the wiring diagram, and see if they won't perform better.


One possible explanation: Cheever's gone, Cassel's in, and Cassel's torqued about the MD-11 tail strike. Rather than yell at the pilots himself, since he realizes most of us won't listen to him anyway, he delegates the job to Jack. Jack can flame on us all, or find another job. (I'd vote with my feet, but then again, I wouldn't take that job in the first place anyway.)

Speculation? Yepp. That's about all we can do. I'm not gonna be the one to reply to his e-mail and ask him how things are going at home. :)


Sounds like he wants an up-or-out program, too. Personally, I think if a guy wants to oil on the slaveship for 25 years, and he's a conscientious, professional oiler, let him be. Somebody's got to do it, right? Why not let it be someone who's happy doing it? If a guy wants to be an Airbus FO forever so he can enjoy seniority and quality of life, why not let him? If he's bad at the job, it's because he's bad at the job, not because he's doing layovers in his home town. Address the problem, not the bidding preferences.




If we had a problem with professionalism before, we're gonna have a problem with morale now. Guess who's the cause of THAT problem?




.

The Airbus 4-wheelers were Barr and Sanwick I think.;)

Just so ya guys know, some airlines do require up or out. I realize it was never mandatory at Fedex. Just so ya know that it isn't unheard of out there.

I will miss Jack's emails (except the last one) when he turns 60 in January. At least we all know where he is coming from. Oh, and that it is all my fault....

You're correct. Jack flew the 727 until transitioning to the 11 in the spring of 2003.

Sanwick left the job not too long after his off road excursion. His taxi incident occurred after we had a rash of similar taxi incidents.

Funny, that's the Air Force Way!
 

Or as I always said when I was in the AF: "One guy craps his pants and we all get issued Depends!":mad:

So airbus F/Os have a pretty good safety record. Md-11 F/Os not so good. In fact bad. (Mem Md-10 gear collapse, Mem tail strike, SFS tail strike) Whats the difference? Maybe professional RFOs who barely stay current. Maybe 14-15 day pairings with min flights/landings. Maybe guys who have been in their seats too long and lost motivation to stay sharp. Definitely a full disclosure of the enders report would help. Somethings wrong and has to change. JAck is saying look in the mirror and see if you're part of the problem. Just cuz you've been able to min run the program so far without a incident doesnt mean cant happen to you.

Just have to say to all you guys that think our F/O's and Captains always do perfect work....
I had an F/O recently pick up the phone and talk all the way thru engine start and then on his leg flying back, at 10,000 feet, pulled out and worked on a crossword puzzle all the way to level off while it was his leg....needless to say we had a conversation....
Guys, we are doing a LOT OF THINGS that are not condusive to safe flying.....

NUF SAID

It sounds to me like enough was not said. The phone call could have been terminated immediately. We shouldn't hesitate to address those types of things on the spot - - we don't need to wait for the mediated debrief to bring them out. "You need to turn the phone off so we can do our jobs. Now."

I don't think anybody has said that we're all perfect. What I resent is the implication that we're all screwed up. The vast majority of us do our jobs well, conscientiously, and professionally. The ones that don't need to be dealt with individually, not with a mass chewin' out.


That's my opinion...



.

Basic Leadership 101:
Praise in public.
Repremand in private.
JL knows who the problem children are. He ought to deal with them mano et mano.

Maybe this is part of what Jack was talking about. That f/o should have had his phone stuck far up his ass by YOU about 4 seconds into that conversation. That type of stuff doesn't wait for the debrief. Self policing, mentoring, etc. Personally, I'd rather be chewed out by a Captain than Jack or Cheever. Nip it in the bud.

That's correct. But the worst part of it is: after sliding off the taxiway (it was an ice event in MEM), they manned up another jet and went flying!!

If that had been any one of us, we'd have been jerked out of the seat and sent to the sim for a PC. Double standard.

I work for somebody else but that phone stuff is just plain rude never mind a bit unsafe.Guys like that deserve an instant response.

Actually, most of the FO's on the MD-11 accidents were new. The 2 MD-10 gear incidents were new FO's. If the Professional RFO's are such a problem, why do they pass their 6 month and annual checks.

Who's problem is it?

We have had 7 accidents........we still have the same Director of Safety.

We still have the Same senior Flight MGT.

We still have the Same MGR of flt training.

Where is the problem?:confused:

He's 59 3/4. We just got done with negotiations. He's been CP the whole time I've been here (almost 5 years). He's got to be BEAT. Maybe he's just whipped down and tired.

I made a point to a friend that with 4800 pilots, 1% of the crew force screwing up once a year means 48 incidents a year. So...even doing a 99 % effective job once a week he's got a missed trip, lost passport, busted line check, etc etc. Year after year it adds up...and one day you boil over.

Perhaps the captain's who don't want RFO pairings aren't the only ones who should downbid. Maybe its time for a new CP with a bit less stress and some fresh blood.

And no--this ain't personal...but I SURE would hate to have that job 5 years...regardless of pay.

RedEyE, Got to agree with you on this one. Every time I see EL I wonder how the hell he has kept his job?? The other thing is FDX prides themselves on the hiring process, maybe we need new people in the hiring department. JL go away already

I've known Jack for over 20 years. I'll always cross a crowded room to greet him and he the same to me. We agree on how the world works and how things should be no more than 50% of the time. Sometimes he loses his cool and pops off like he did this time.

But I think we have to give him credit for doing a thankless job for 5 years. I can't think of a job I'd want less than chief pilot and especially chief pilot during contract negotiations. He's the first real CP that's sat in that office since Fato was there. He didn't apply for the job: Cheever twisted his arm and enlisted all his old Navy buds to tell him he had to do it. He's not afraid to tell the VP he's full of cr@p and he's not afraid to tell the crew force when he thinks we're getting off course.

Criticize him all you want, but I'd much rather have a guy like him in the front office than:

• A non-seniority chief pilot
• An egoist who really wanted the job

I think Jack was shootin' from the hip on this one. I just don't think he cleared leather.

I'll give him a Mulligan
 

I dunno, I didn't think the Captain thing was too bad. I like a guy with whom you know where you stand. He doesn't bullsh@t around. Though I am not a kid, and he is not my parent, I would hate my parenting skill to be judged only by the time I "lost it" with my kids.

I didn't take it personally because I didn't think I was the target. I think we need tougher skins now and then.

Can someone post the F/O letter,\... the captains can't see it...

World, thanks for saying something to your FO. That's just unsat. And I see alot of Capts who don't say anything to numbnuts or me when we "F" it up -- and we all "F" it up occasionally, through errors of omission or commision.

I was recently on a trip as RFO and the FO messed up all 3 of his decents; planning, speed control, everything. Capt had to intervene and "make recomendations" twice. I asked later how long he'd been in the jet and if he bid RFO. Been in the jet 2+ yrs and avoided RFO. I suggested bidding RFO and watching and maybe LEARNING SOMETHING!

Gee, are you saying Jack didn't up grade to widebody Capt withine two years of being eligible? Is he the kettle or are we?

I think that taxi incident was during the '98 Christmas ice storm! He left in early '01 after the Postal contract was announced!

EL not only kept his job, he got promoted!

The FO you're flying with won't give you a copy? ;)

I predict that we'll be missing ol' Jack about a week after his replacement takes over.

"He was a cruel man, but fair...." - M. Python

First Officer Missive
 

This is just a summary of the letter. It doesn't include the entire letter. I don't want to make the whole thing public that wasn't intended to be public.

:o

Let's talk about RFOs first.

RFOs are a vital part of our operation. If you can only hold RFO, so be it. Look the part, do it right, be prepared. However, if you're senior and you make your living being an RFO, then you're a problem. RFOs should be our most junior F/Os because real pilots want to fly; thus, they should be the F/O on the trip. We do provide opportunity for F/Os to do both jobs, yet some always struggle to maintain currency. I know all about commuting, quality of life, RFO deadheads, two-earner households, pilots married to each other, etc. This job is a balance between personal and professional lives. Flying is what you signed up to do and flying is what you were hired to do. It doesn't matter if you are flying in the Reserves/Guard, commuting from another continent, or finishing up your Masters in Basket Weaving. Flying at FedEx is your primary occupation. Also, paying RFOs the same as F/Os doesn't work for me. The only way an RFO is worth his F/O pay is by being ready to be a good F/O. We have F/Os who don't get 15 landings a year. What are they ready for? If you like cooking for a living, go to Johnson and Wales and change your profession. This is a flying outfit.

Then there's the real First Officers. Every Captain wants a good First Officer and we have plenty of them. Unfortunately, if you look at our 6 major mishaps caused by pilot-error, one F/O gave unbelievably bad advice to the Captain and four others had the F/O at the controls. That's 66% of the flying and 83% causal. Where were the good ones when they were needed?

Certainly every one of these accidents was preventable by the Captain exercising good judgment and there is no attempt here to try to shift responsibility or accountability off of the Captain position. However, 5 of the 6 accidents were also preventable by the First Officer. We have many great First Officers, just like we have great Captains; yet we have 5 of 6 major mishaps that occurred because both of the crewmembers were out to lunch. We hire pilots with experience; however, more and more Captains are coming forward saying they are giving flying lessons to their First Officers. You are supposed to know how to fly when you "make it" to FedEx. What's up there?

Attitude, preparation, ability? It's a major concern.

It takes everyone of us doing the best we can every time we come to work. All of you First Officers are Captains-in-waiting…..you need to look the part, be prepared, and emulate the guy in the left seat. He is the key to your long successful career at FedEx….and he needs good help.

One last thought……if you could hold Memphis wide-body Captain for more than two years, haven't bid a Captain seat, and don't want to, you're part of the problem….. hang up your stripes. It's not a part-time job…we can't use part-time help.
-----------------

My 2 cents...

-- So Jack would prefer a guy with only 50 landings in the airplane to go a month or two with out any landings (RFO lines), over a more senior guy, with 500 landings in the airplane to go with out landings for a month or two? Doesn't sound smart to me.

-- "because real pilots want to fly; thus, they should be the F/O on the trip" - All emotion, no logic here. 'nuff said.

-- I don't know who Jack flies with, but the F/O's and Capt's I fly with have been prepared (as best they could be - FATIGUE!?!), motivated, and professional. We hire the same caliber of folks into the MD-11 as the Bus and Boeing. Time to take a look at the airplane (does standards still decree that an MD-11 and MD-10 land the same?) and a look at fatigue. Fatigue affects decision-making and fine motor skills in the same way as alcohol. I've never flown with a drunk pilot. I've never flown with a pilot that said "I'm fatigued", but I HAVE flown many times with guys that struggle to stay awake, make stupid errors, and show all the signs of being fatigued.

-- What DID the Ender's report say that we pilots are not allowed to hear? :confused:

-- The worst landing I've had in the 3 years on the jet happend just recently - vfr, calm wind, perfect day, etc. (shame)... :eek: And this was just a few days after I had been flying AFW hub turns for two weeks... So I bid back to the RFO thing this month... even though I COULD be on the jurasic jet as a Capt.... ugggggg

Way to go JL, if you can't provide leadership, just provide blame. Sounds like the "Jimmy Carter School of Leadership".

Just got back from a 2 week asia trip that got extended for a couple of days to pick up a new (new to us) MD-11 that was once a Delta Jet. Also got a good look at the Subic Jet parked off to the side. Really really sad. Along the way I read JL email. While parts of it I can agree with, showing up prepard, know what your doing etc etc other parts I just had to shake my head.

Twice in the last two months I've had to fly thru Hong Kong with absolute minimum crew rest. Reason we kept going ,,, because the next flight is a big dollar flight to FDX. No more. One of the reasons I believe we are having all these accidents is to do to FATIGUE. The company keeps building schedules that littery grind us into the dirt. As several have mentioned the Enders report proably says it all.

The company wants it both ways. Like a squadron skipper that keeps pushing his enlisted men and officers to keep the missions going so to does FDX do the same in the name of the almighty dollar. Don't get me wrong I understand where my paycheck comes from. But now the company is putting new hires in the maddog. Nothing against them and look forward to flying with them but I've been here 18 years and have flown virtually every position on every A/C we own. 10 schools is more than enough. It takes time to learn all this stuff. CFM, stuff, wx, vips, bidding, vacation, D/Hing, where the noodle shop is etc.

Bottom line as I'm getting tired and trying to get back on a normal sleep cycle is this................ WERE GONE TO HAVE ANOTHER ACCIDENT AND ONE OF THESE DAYS SOME IS GOING TO DIE.

Sorry for the late add-on but when Jack retires in January just like in the military when the XO takes over the squadron he is gonna lay the law down to show who's boss. Stand the ****** by.

Stand by for what?
 

We're not in the military anymore. There's 4600 of us and we have a UNION and a CONTRACT! So they sit out in the hallway and send guys home for having flags on their ties, who cares? They can fire guys and make some examples. But guess what, those guys will have representation, unlike (you guessed it) the military.

[QUOTE=
I was recently on a trip as RFO and the FO messed up all 3 of his decents; planning, speed control, everything. Capt had to intervene and "make recomendations" twice. I asked later how long he'd been in the jet and if he bid RFO. Been in the jet 2+ yrs and avoided RFO. I suggested bidding RFO and watching and maybe LEARNING SOMETHING![/QUOTE]

Tell me wha pairing allowed you to watch the same FO with you as RFO do three decents.