Colgan and Part 117
12-26-2011, 08:54 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by johnso29
No. It's not the FAA's job to fire pilots. But it is the FAA's job to monitor training programs and standards. So yes, I was speaking of standards.
Don't see how that transfers to "corrupt" though - unless you are trying to tie it in with just the standard political corruption.
USMCFLYR
12-26-2011, 10:29 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by RealityCheck
I may have missed it, but where in Part 117 does it prevent another Colgan-like fatigued crew?
12-26-2011, 11:41 AM
#13
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Originally Posted by HaveTacitBlue
I'm not clear on which part of the regulations you're referencing. 14 CFR Part 117 is reserved. TIA...
In consideration of the foregoing, the Federal Aviation Administration amends
chapter I of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations as follows:
1. Part 117 is added to read as follows:
chapter I of title 14, Code of Federal Regulations as follows:
1. Part 117 is added to read as follows:
PART 117—FLIGHT AND DUTY LIMITATIONS AND REST
REQUIREMENTS: FLIGHTCREW MEMBERShttp://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
12-26-2011, 11:46 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by RealityCheck
...But to partially answer my question, isn't there something in Part 117 requiring one to certify before flight ones fitness? If so, seems that the FAA (and maybe even the company) could take action if that certification was suspect.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
page 6
1.Fitness for Duty.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
page 294
§ 117.5 Fitness for duty.
(d) As part of the dispatch or flight release, as applicable, each flightcrew member must affirmatively state he or she is fit for duty prior to commencing flight.
It seems to me that a responsible certificate holder would access CASS (or their own jumpseats) to make sure they are not liable for a crewmember who jumpseated into a flight period without allowing adequate rest. The certificate holder probably should also check hotel check-in records when a duty period starts with a DH followed by a rest period, again to ensure they are exercising an adequate level of supervision.
Last edited by RealityCheck; 12-26-2011 at 12:05 PM.
12-26-2011, 02:54 PM
#15
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Originally Posted by USMCFLYR
Then we can agree that the standards might be too low then.
Don't see how that transfers to "corrupt" though - unless you are trying to tie it in with just the standard political corruption.
USMCFLYR
Don't see how that transfers to "corrupt" though - unless you are trying to tie it in with just the standard political corruption.
USMCFLYR
12-26-2011, 03:38 PM
#16
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So is this thread about commuting is that it? Someone wanted a "commuter clause" in the new rest rules, is that it? It's not enough that the government is mandating that we close our eyes an actually sleep when we are at rest?
Why even waste our time on this useless Washington political turd of an attempt to save lives. The public screams and Washington reacts. There is no way to effectively enforce sleep. There is no chemical test.
It's called good judgement and dicipline and honor. Either pilots have it or they don't. That's what need to be hired, not anyone with a wet comm.
Why even waste our time on this useless Washington political turd of an attempt to save lives. The public screams and Washington reacts. There is no way to effectively enforce sleep. There is no chemical test.
It's called good judgement and dicipline and honor. Either pilots have it or they don't. That's what need to be hired, not anyone with a wet comm.
12-26-2011, 03:51 PM
#17
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Sandlapper
That "someone" would be the NTSB. Do you not have a problem with someone commuting within the FDP? With someone sleeping in the crew lounge?
BTW, I completely agree with you on discipline and honor being required, unfortunately, that may not be the standard applied by many pilots. The temptation to "cheat" is too easily rewarded in too many cases.
GF
That "someone" would be the NTSB. Do you not have a problem with someone commuting within the FDP? With someone sleeping in the crew lounge?
BTW, I completely agree with you on discipline and honor being required, unfortunately, that may not be the standard applied by many pilots. The temptation to "cheat" is too easily rewarded in too many cases.
GF
12-26-2011, 07:47 PM
#18
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Originally Posted by RealityCheck
The media made a big deal about the Colgan families being behind the rest rules. Are the media and those families aware that the new rules have done nothing that require pilots to be properly rested after their commute? Just sayin'...
Originally Posted by RealityCheck
More info....
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
page 6
page 294
§ 117.5 Fitness for duty.
(d) As part of the dispatch or flight release, as applicable, each flightcrew member must affirmatively state he or she is fit for duty prior to commencing flight.
It seems to me that a responsible certificate holder would access CASS (or their own jumpseats) to make sure they are not liable for a crewmember who jumpseated into a flight period without allowing adequate rest. The certificate holder probably should also check hotel check-in records when a duty period starts with a DH followed by a rest period, again to ensure they are exercising an adequate level of supervision.
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_polic...-FinalRule.pdf
page 6
1.Fitness for Duty.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
page 294
§ 117.5 Fitness for duty.
(d) As part of the dispatch or flight release, as applicable, each flightcrew member must affirmatively state he or she is fit for duty prior to commencing flight.
It seems to me that a responsible certificate holder would access CASS (or their own jumpseats) to make sure they are not liable for a crewmember who jumpseated into a flight period without allowing adequate rest. The certificate holder probably should also check hotel check-in records when a duty period starts with a DH followed by a rest period, again to ensure they are exercising an adequate level of supervision.
12-26-2011, 08:14 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by RealityCheck
page 6
1.Fitness for Duty.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
It seems to me that a responsible certificate holder would access CASS (or their own jumpseats) to make sure they are not liable for a crewmember who jumpseated into a flight period without allowing adequate rest. The certificate holder probably should also check hotel check-in records when a duty period starts with a DH followed by a rest period, again to ensure they are exercising an adequate level of supervision.
1.Fitness for Duty.
This rule places a joint responsibility on the certificate holder and each flightcrew member. In order for the flightcrew member to report for an FDP properly rested, the certificate holder must provide the flightcrew member with a meaningful rest opportunity that will allow the flightcrew member to get the proper amount of sleep. Likewise, the flightcrew member bears the responsibility of actually sleeping during the rest opportunity provided by the certificate holder instead of using that time to do other things. The consequence of a flightcrew member reporting for duty without being properly rested is that he or she is prohibited from beginning or continuing an FDP until he or she is properly rested.
It seems to me that a responsible certificate holder would access CASS (or their own jumpseats) to make sure they are not liable for a crewmember who jumpseated into a flight period without allowing adequate rest. The certificate holder probably should also check hotel check-in records when a duty period starts with a DH followed by a rest period, again to ensure they are exercising an adequate level of supervision.
Originally Posted by UPSierra
If pilots are truly interested in safety, they would not be exceeding duty limits (if you consider their commute). 
Didn't know this thread was about commuter haters. Good luck tracking down people who don't meet your personal standard of resting. I don't think the government wants the mess you'd like to create.
BTW, UPSierra, if UPS was really interested in safety they would not have fought the new rest rules. Guess it's good to hope for properly rested pilots around you. Sweet dreams.
Last edited by Gunter; 12-26-2011 at 08:31 PM.
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