China Southern so cheap they wont deice
 

Well nothing more fun that being held hostage to a flight crew that doesnt think physics applies to them. During the recent snow storm in NRT, I was deadheading out on China Southern flt 386. We boarded and had a clean wing, but soon started to accumulate. From boarding to takeoff, was approx 2hr and the company never deiced. I was sure we were going to get squirted at the end of the runway but the pilot whipped onto the runway and immeadiately pushed up the power. I would estimate we had 2inches of clutter on the wings on takeoff roll. At 10000 ft we still had 20% of the wing covered with ice. See links for photos. First one was about 60 minutes before takeoff when he configured. By takeoff it was 2 to 3 times as thick. Second picture is during climbout after about 10minutes.

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psa47fccd5.jpg

http://i1282.photobucket.com/albums/...psee32e5b1.jpg

I know Fedex wants to save money on airfares, but this was outright dangerous, and I feel lucky to be alive. There were four fedex crewmembers on board this flight that might not have been here if Boeing hadn't made such an awesome wing on their 737. I've filed a ops report as have several of the other guys, I just hope we stop using these guys. Pl

Wow. Glad everyone is ok. Not good.

I would do more than send in an ops report. I would call the FAA and find out who in Japan you could send them too. This needs to be fixed now!

Yea...thats BS.

I think I'd send those photos (and your narrative) to BM and JB too.

MG2

As well as the union and Sig.

Air Florida redux. :(

This is UNACCEPTABLE! All CZ flights should be rebooked on another airline ASAP...

Holy ******snacks!

Unacceptable.

Get those pics to the union ASAP.

FDX ALPA needs to warn anyone with a DH on CZ to rebook with anyone else, and forget the stupid accepted fare.

Sort it out later, but no one should ride them now.

I'm happy to send this issue to the Union, but who would I contact that can get movement on it. . . Everytime I've made a call over there I get a msg machine and a call back whenever... That's why I posted it to the forum.. Thought people would want to know faster than the usual info line.

crap thats scary . screw that

fedex.alp.org has the contact info for all the fdx alpa comittees, but Start with:
Safety committe rep mailto:[email protected] Gary Janelli, Negotiating, Capt. Scott Larsen, voicemail: #2013, e-mail:
[email protected],
SIG First Officer Rich Hughey, e-mail: [email protected],
Professional Standards, Capt. Steve Eckert, e-mail: [email protected]

And your block reps, all LEC reps & all mec reps. All those emails on the fdx.alpa.org contact us page.

This is just the type factual evidence that the sig & scheduling committee needs to get the company to back off on "those" carriers.

Same with accepted fares & actual fares, I send them the trip summary and then the ticket itenerary & invoice when they are different. ALPA negotiating committee needs the data to build their case on the accepted fare issue as well, and it is our duty to provide it, to help them help all of us.

Good on ya for getting the pics & bringing it out, that is the first step.

Sent an email to neg chair, safety, and sig. I guess I'll sit back for a day or two and see where this goes.
Sunburn

Now that's scary. Keep us updated.

File an ASAP

Mr. Sunburn may be due for the special immigration line in china. I recommend a screen name change and as much anonymity as you can muster.

Just stop and think about what we don't see. If they are blatant enough to take off with snow and ice hanging off the aircraft it makes you wonder what else they might be inclined to do. Which inoperative parts they may be willing to fly without, what sort of fuel reserves they carry, and what kind of weather they may fly in.

I was in TPE one foggy a number of years ago and saw some sort of orange glow off to the Northwest. Found out later it was a China Air A-300 that had missed the approach and stalled and crashed on the go-around. A year or so later they had a Bulgarian Captain die at the controls so the F/O made the landing. The F/O was 27 and had 750 hours of total time. He was talked down by someone in Ops. They had him couple it up and make an auto land.

After these episodes Fedex stopped using Air China for deadheading crew members. They used to have a do not deadhead list but I'm sure that has disappeared.

I remember a time when we never flew on any airline that had "China" in its name. Maybe we need to go back to that rule!

......................

China Southern
 

This airline belongs to the Skyteam Alliance (Delta). I would file a complaint with Skyteam.

Let's say that I'm scheduled on CZ. Can I refuse? Could I call the company and say, "I'm not flying them...find another way."?

I'd be willing to press to test.

WM

Probably get in trouble for not having his electronic device off:mad:

A few weeks ago a FDX pilot had video posted here and on youtube of him violating the FOM and from what I understand he is now NOQ and under investigating from the FAA. Now this video surfaces and I bet nothing happens. There in lies the difference between US airlines and Mainland Chinese airlines and why we should not be schedules on Mainland Chinese airlines. I thought it was unacceptable when they started doing it and wondered why we did not ***** more about the change.

I'm confident that this will work.:rolleyes:

So I guess the answer would be? No?

So, put yourself on this airplane.

You look out the window and see what is in the first pic, as you can tell you are turning onto the runway for takeoff.

What do you do?

1) Shut up and pray you survive the takeoff?

2) Get up, cause a commotion, and demand to be let off the plane?

3) Get up and blow the slide on one of the doors?

Don't forget that now if you die, your wife only gets $300K, I think it is, by the contract.

Remember when she used to get your retirement?

I think the union and management needs to address this situation immediately.

No more trips for me on CZ!

Nightflyer,
Exactly my point! I was a hostage (granted I wasn't worrying about my wife.... currently single, but I was definitely concerned about my future ability to interview applicants for the wife position). As I said before I filed a pilot ops report, but it is now 5 days later and still no response or action. I'm not sure how long this process takes, but its probably running through legal to see if they have any risk in doing nothing. From my point of view though, Im not sure the company could take the risk of doing nothing. For example... They've now been notified that this airline is a safety hazard, and the company changes nothing. I'm pretty sure that now if something were to happen, just one lawsuit would be incredibly expensive because they had prior knowledge. Am I right? I still don't want to be that guy.... just saying....

In the past few months I've received replies concerning the Pilot Ops Reports that I submitted OVER A YEAR AGO!*? That system is a good concept but ... maybe an ASAP report would get more attention!*?

I agree with Hdawg and Mayday. File an ASAP and specifically call the safety shop to include a info email to your Fleet Captain. Also call the union safety shop.You were working and adhering to the company schedule. They have a responsibility to ensure you have a safe work environment . It is the same if you witness an unsafe operation on the ramp or something that might endanger you like a unsafe cab driver. Totally unacceptable! Glad you're safe!
Pakage

Email or call your Fleet Captain and/or System Chief Pilot directly - surely they must be aware, by now, of this incident. (& don't call me Shirley) ;)

Ask them directly what is or has been done about this & report back here what they tell you.

I think this type of issue is one that management takes a long hard look at, for a number of reasons. First let me say I think we should be deadheading on US carriers when that option is available, period. Secondly I am glad we are having a discussion of "what could have happened", plain lucky this was not a crash. All that being said, if the Company knee jerk reacted to every situation that could result in blacklisting a service provider I am pretty sure we could shut down the airline in a hurry.

It is important to remember that every airline has major mistakes, is it a "culture" problem? Was this a "rouge" or simply incompetent pilot problem? Well I do not recall cries for getting us off brand X when say they landed on a taxi way or brand Y flew 200 plus miles past their destination? I am not defending the airline in question, just inserting some reality into the mix. Is it easier to know that a carrier is safer if it is under FAA scrutiny? maybe. Lastly I know our Company uses a risk assessment vendor to decide which airlines are going to be used and I also know that our own airline would probably still be a no fly carrier if we had a pax op, just the facts.

I hope that we see a movement towards US or long standing equivalent or better carriers to move us around and that probably should include limiting or a complete suspension on using this carrier but I for one will give the Company a little time to make an analysis. If in the interim I was scheduled on this carrier I personally would avoid them, either through a request of pairing change or if necessary I would deviate until we see a reply to these reports.

When did this happen and what carrier?

you must have been living under a rock :), it is in the news even today due to the push for limiting or banning PED's. Just google it but to answer your Q it was the former carrier based in Minnesota.

Not living under a rock! I just don't remember any part of the story that said they overflew by 200 miles. In fact, the FAA's reference to 150 miles is an exaggeration!

Who knows, before the end of the year it will probably be; they overflew by 500 miles and landed on fumes with one engine flamed out and a flight attendant at the controls because the crew was passed out drunk and flying in their underwear! :rolleyes:

Because the importance of/disturbing part of the event is based on the exact distance of the overflight?

sorry I was making a SWAG as part of my points. I guess in my eyes call it flying over your destination by 1 mile, at cruise, probably is the same level of mistake regardless of the track miles flown past that point since TOD is generally about 125 miles out. :) not throwing stones just trying to say sometimes we all need a look in the mirror and hopefully the crew in question in this thread was the problem and not the airline directing this by not wanting to pay for de-ice fluid!

Call corp travel and talk to the agent that used to book FDX executive travel. Let us know if China Southern would be ok for them.

what's his/her name? ...:rolleyes: so what you are saying is that China Southern is not approved for execs to ride on? If so I suggest you send that info to the Union with details because iI agree that would be very useful!

A little birdie told me CZ has been removed from the approved DH carrier list.

I'm thinkin' that little birdie is crappin' in the wrong tree because I'm still DHing on them next trip. :confused: