no one got "kicked back to the 727 out of seniority order" - it was not a good situation for a LOT of folks, but it definitely didn't happen as you have attempted to describe it.

give the beer a little time to wear off & you might remember what actually happened with that excess bid - & then, also, 4A2b

 

Don't forget the AGE 60 effect also acting during the same period (and exaggerating the final results!)

That said ... it was a REALLY BAD DEAL that some folks got excessed from a higher to lower paying seat and then had to take it up the 4.a.2.b

On a different but related issue ... I was OK with the concept of less pay for less work in order to prevent a furlough (if you believe that might have happened?) but that's not what RESERVE, FLEX or numerous other jobs that are based on R day pay was about! Hey NC lurkers, can we fix that please? We could see it again one day.

 

And dont forget we changed the open time 48 hour rule which allowed FDX to reduce by 2/3rds how many reserve and stby pilots they scheduled.

 

refresh my memory on this? not sure what you're referring to...thanks

 

Opentime trips used to be locked out at the 48 hour point. We negotiated more open opentime, resulting in less trips being assigned to reserves. One of the reasons for 4A2b was the reserve manning formula changed.

 

How do you explain the more senior F/O's going to training ahead of the junior F/O's that never left ANC.

The company decided to use seat and a/c in the excess (something not in the CBA for excesses) and ALPA refused to support the more senior F/O's asking for help. Now go read that CBA and tell where it says they can do that!

 

This is what I remember:

The "more senior" F/O's that went to training chose the 727 FO seat vs. the 727 SO (FE) seat - as their seniority entitled them to elect to do (any/all of them could have held the 727 SO/FE seat, but chose - voluntarily - to bid for the 727 FO seat instead)

The guys that I knew that were AWARDED 727 FO (based on they were senior enough to hold it & had bid it over the SO/FE slot) - did go to training right away - while some (a lot) of pilots JUNIOR to them remained in ANC (as MD11 FO's) awaiting a 727 SO/FE training slot that was assigned to them, but MUCH farther in the future than the FO training slots (many - maybe all - I don't really know - never went to SO/FE training & were able to bid back to ANC MD11 FO before they ever even left.)

The company has always been in control of the training letter - and there are separate letters for each & every crew position/aircraft.

At the time, there must have been training slots that needed to be filled in the 727 FO seat right away, & evidently, they were somewhat "fat" on 727 SO/FE's &/or had no training slots needing to be filled right away.

The excess BID & the resulting training letters were/are 2 completely separate events - as per our CBA.

The "more senior" guys that got the 727 FO slots & went to training right away actually got what their seniority entitled them to - an FO seat vs. an SO/FE seat.

The ones I knew/know that got FO thought they were getting a better "deal" getting the window view vs. side-saddle - but had no idea the training letter would play out like it did.

So.....that's how I "explain it"

Questions?

 

Plus, bidding to relieve an excess trains before being excessed. Bidding to relieve goes in seniority order. Excess goes reverse seniority.

 

"The ones I knew/know that got FO thought they were getting a better "deal" getting the window view vs. side-saddle - but had no idea the training letter would play out like it did.

So.....that's how I "explain it"

Questions?[/QUOTE]"

Questions? Yes; why didn't the Union fight against this abrogation of Seniority?

Here's how I remember it. The senior F/Os bid the 727 window seat over the panel because that was all the information that was provided --there was no info on training dates (HKG was also available, and was what was driving this excess in the first place).

Why was there no info on training dates? The Company knew what the training dates were all along, but withheld that info. Why? Because had the senior F/Os known about the year long delay in ANC for the panel training they would have bid that. This would mean that the junior pilots would have trained in the window seat first, and were another bid to be needed later, they would have to be retrained on the panel.

So by withholding info the Company got the "right" numbers in the "correct" seats at the minimum training cost.

Which is fine, if you aren't operating in a Seniority system.

But we are operating in a Seniority system. What should have been done? I can tell you this would not have happened at my previous Major. There, the Union would have insisted the pilots leave in reverse seniority order, regardless of where they were going. If the only training that was available when the first pilot left was 727 window, that is where he went. When it came time for the more senior pilot to leave ( a year later in the ANC case) he would go where his seniority could hold (727 window) and if that resulted in overmanning in the window seat, then the junior ANC pilot would be excessed from the 727 window, and train on the panel. That costs more Training dollars, but THAT IS HOW SENIORITY WORKS!

This inaction by the Union sets a dangerous precedent.

Questions?






Sent from my iPad

 

RogAir,

Questions? Yes. Well, just one. Have you read the contract for the airline you are currently working?

If not, just read 24.C.6. Excess Crew Positions

a. Pilots shall be excessed from crew positions in seniority order from among those pilots who bid to relieve that excess. If an insufficient number of pilots bid to relieve a crew position posted as excess, pilots shall be excessed from that crew position in reverse seniority order. Except as provided in Section 24.C.6.b., a pilot who has been excessed, or who has bid to relieve an excess, shall be awarded another permanent crew position in accordance with his seniority and standing bid; provided, however, no pilot may be awarded or assigned a crew position at an FDA base that would cause an excess at that base.