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Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1527480)
As an expat... I've been in a lot worse with monsoon conditions, engine failure. Heart attack victim in the back... should I go on? And that's on one flight!
If their union protects their jobs, then so be it. But what's the message to those who follow proper procedures, SOPs, briefings? This crew was domestic under positive radar contact. Sorry no sympathy from me. |
Originally Posted by Tango 6
(Post 1527512)
Scary thing is you dont realize how dangerous you are.
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Remember those first rules for pilots. It was one page and had about 10 rules. Now We have over 10 chapters of how to do it right. Why the increase in SOP, because what we thought would keep us perfect wasn't enough. Just saying you can follow the rules and still up in a bad spot.
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Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1527480)
As an expat... I've been in a lot worse with monsoon conditions, engine failure. Heart attack victim in the back... should I go on? And that's on one flight!
If their union protects their jobs, then so be it. But what's the message to those who follow proper procedures, SOPs, briefings? This crew was domestic under positive radar contact. Sorry no sympathy from me. As Atlas pilots, I know they have been in some real crapholes and crap conditions as well. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard. I suspect you have no real insight or facts about what happened unless you have a direct line to the crew. Otherwise you are like everyone else...reading the funnies and armchair quarterbacking. Which means that your pronouncements are bilge. You don't know what the union...or the company will do. Sounds like despite the fact that there was no damage or injury, you want scalps. Pretty sad. An opportunity exists for a teaching event and some like you decree via keyboard. That's why the industry has programs like ASAP. Everyone realized that pilots ARE human and errors DO happen. And instead of your heads on pikes approach, it's better to find out if common threads exist (like multiple similar events at these airports over the years) and if the common thread can be defined, how to fix it. I'd also suspect that a company like Atlas, who operates in more hairy places than you, understands this and is less likely to throw people under the bus like you are. |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1527480)
As an expat... I've been in a lot worse with monsoon conditions, engine failure. Heart attack victim in the back... should I go on? And that's on one flight!
Did you see any Migs and go into a 4G negative dive? |
Originally Posted by Packrat
(Post 1526798)
Because they were trying to figure out where they were.
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Originally Posted by satpak77
(Post 1527583)
agree just wondering why not the "direct to nearest" airport option on the GPS was not used, if installed. They requested the RNAV approach, so I assume some sort of GPS avionics were installed.
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Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp
(Post 1527589)
Given that they completely ignored the RNAV approach they were cleared to fly and dropped in 6 miles early... the fact that they were disoriented enough to have issues with what you point out is not surprising. What caused that is the big question.
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Originally Posted by Tango 6
(Post 1527512)
Scary thing is you dont realize how dangerous you are.
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Originally Posted by Slats Extend
(Post 1527412)
You need better glasses...;)
Originally Posted by satpak77
(Post 1527583)
agree just wondering why not the "direct to nearest" airport option on the GPS was not used, if installed. They requested the RNAV approach, so I assume some sort of GPS avionics were installed.
The FMS database doesn't include Jabara airport because the runway specs for Jabara airport do not support an airplane the size of of B747. The FMS told them exactly where they were, in Lat/Lon, but it had no idea that there was an airport there. The FIX page could have told them their bearing and distance to Mc Connell and would have been a good place to use to cross-check on the enroute chart for their location. |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1527558)
One one flight? Do tell us more.
As Atlas pilots, I know they have been in some real crapholes and crap conditions as well. So don't pat yourself on the back too hard. I suspect you have no real insight or facts about what happened unless you have a direct line to the crew. Otherwise you are like everyone else...reading the funnies and armchair quarterbacking. Which means that your pronouncements are bilge. You don't know what the union...or the company will do. Sounds like despite the fact that there was no damage or injury, you want scalps. Pretty sad. An opportunity exists for a teaching event and some like you decree via keyboard. That's why the industry has programs like ASAP. Everyone realized that pilots ARE human and errors DO happen. And instead of your heads on pikes approach, it's better to find out if common threads exist (like multiple similar events at these airports over the years) and if the common thread can be defined, how to fix it. I'd also suspect that a company like Atlas, who operates in more hairy places than you, understands this and is less likely to throw people under the bus like you are. Anyway ATC... Hopefully this recent event will help us and those who we both fly with maintain proper crew disciplines and situational awareness. Safe journeys ATC |
Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1527480)
As an expat... I've been in a lot worse with monsoon conditions, engine failure. Heart attack victim in the back... should I go on? And that's on one flight!
This crew was domestic under positive radar contact. Sorry no sympathy from me. Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down. It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened. The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure. While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book. No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot. More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career. The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader. 8 |
Originally Posted by satpak77
(Post 1527583)
agree just wondering why not the "direct to nearest" airport option on the GPS was not used, if installed. They requested the RNAV approach, so I assume some sort of GPS avionics were installed.
This particular airport isnt in the FMC database for my company's 747-400s because we never go there; each airline loads its own databases with the airports they fly to since the 747-400 memory is very limited unless they bought the Boeing upgrade. If the airport wasnt contained in the database they'd have to fly the approach without any FMS/FMC data (raw data ILS, for example). However I think Atlas does go to this airport alot so they probably had it. Anyway, Im actually shocked as to how many people are trashing these guys for what happened. Its a learning experience for the rest of us, but theres no need to kick these guys while theyre down. |
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
(Post 1527652)
The rest of are clearly not perfect like you.
8 |
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
(Post 1527652)
We are so impressed and proud of you! Good job with all the emergencies and the 38 glorious years of perfect performance in your aviation career. The rest of are clearly not perfect like you.
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down. It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened. The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure. While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book. No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot. More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career. The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader. 8 This is absolutely the best post I have ever read on ANY of these web boards! I would be proud to fly with you anytime and anywhere sir. FR8 |
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
(Post 1527652)
We are so impressed and proud of you! Good job with all the emergencies and the 38 glorious years of perfect performance in your aviation career. The rest of are clearly not perfect like you.
Perhaps this thread should be left to those of us who are human and believe themselves to be fallible and wish to learn from the mistakes of others while not passing judgement and condemnation on our fellow pilots when they are down. It sounds to me that your idea of CRM/TRM/TEM is to fix the blame on your fellow crew member and not fix the problem as you are clearly fixing the blame on the Atlas pilots while not having anything constructive to say. What you are saying is really "THEY DIDN'T DO THINGS PERFECTLY, SO THEY SCREWED UP" and then go on to recite all of the things they did incorrectly. Thank you Captain Obvious: We all know WHAT happened. The real question should be "WHY did this happen?" The answer to why is not "they didn't follow the procedure". The real answer will be found when we can say WHY they didn't follow the procedure. While your state of perfection is admirable, I doubt that it truly exists. Have you NEVER made a mistake in the cockpit? Honestly? Never missed a radio call? Never read back a clearance incorrectly? Never deviated from SOP's or FAR's, ever? Never been under MDA? Never overshot a vector onto a LOC? All have the potential for trouble and all are in your book. No I am not splitting hairs here, I am pointing out that there are only degrees of mistakes and there exists an enormous grey area between unobtainable absolute perfection and a newsworthy incident. You have never landed off centerline? I doubt it and yet I defy you to come up with an absolute number of feet off of a runway centerline that is unacceptable. Same goes for landing short or long of the touchdown zone. While we all (at least I) strive to hit the centerline in the middle of the touchdown zone on every landing, I will admit that I am off a few inches every now and then. I get away with this because the runways we typically use are long and wide, but I strive for perfection because on rare occasions, we do fly into short or narrow strips where a long or wide landing would be bad. I strive for perfection because I know I will never attain it but the effort makes me a safer pilot. More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career. The realization of this human limitation, and the desire to reduce it to the greatest possible degree, is what makes a pilot a professional, and a captain a worthy leader. 8 Don't how else to respond to your response other than... Rah, Rah. More than your unconstructive additions to this discussion, your belief in your own infallibility points to the out-of-date and dangerous mindset that you could not possibly ever do anything wrong because you "follow the book". It's not "the book" that I take issue with. It is the human that follows the book (if he is honest with himself) will fail to perform the duties in that book perfectly, every time, for their entire career. I have to tell you Spur...I'm not infallible. That's why I conduct a thorough brief, practice CRM... not just the cockpit but the entire crew. I stress the same to my students too. I agree ATC. I too would like an honest account as too the links in the chain that broke which lead to loss of situational awareness, ultimate reliance on following the magenta line. Not to air one's dirty laundry, but what others flying modern aged GPS, FMC equipped jets can do to maintain awareness of the situation and location. |
Originally Posted by ghilis101
(Post 1527256)
Allow me to interject since I'm now a high risk candidate for landing at the wrong airport. In the past year, both the airplanes I currently fly (747-400 and c-17) have landed at the wrong airport. Both airplanes have "magenta lines" and a thousand ways to back up the approach. One of them has a HUD.
The c17 was being flown by a crew of all instructors (check airman equivalent) The Atlas 747-400 crew by default is very senior (most junior captain is 12 years or so). So what's our takeaway? It was a bad day, we've all experienced such incredible fatigue that we swear up and down we didn't do what we just did. |
I'm throwing all my chips in on captjns's side. He's not dangerous. He's advocating he knows he CAN make mistakes and therefore goes out of his way to mitigate those risks.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous. It does not happen to 'anyone'. |
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Originally Posted by PotatoChip
(Post 1527680)
I'm throwing all my chips in on captjns's side. He's not dangerous. He's advocating he knows he CAN make mistakes and therefore goes out of his way to mitigate those risks.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous. It does not happen to 'anyone'. |
New Atlas Slogan
Real Men land where they want to! :D:D:D
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[QUOTE=Adlerdriver;1527720]Well put, Chip. I think captjns's delivery obviously rubbed folks the wrong way but his main point is valid. Throwing the crew under the bus didn't help him make it.
>>>>This<<<< |
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 1527736)
Real Men land where they want to! :D:D:D
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Originally Posted by maxjet
(Post 1527679)
I won't let you land at the wrong airport and spoil that spotless record. Besides I need to get you hired at a major and out of my seat young one!
Well, it would make a great "tell me about a time" story at an interview haha. Good seeing you the other day, stay safe. |
Chuck Norris NEVER lands at the wrong. airport. He lands wherever he wants and it simply gets renamed to the intended destination.
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Originally Posted by captjns
(Post 1527664)
You have to read and get your facts straight, sir, before you comment.
You remind me of a guy who carries EVERYTHING about the plane and procedures on 3X5's in his shirt pocket. Has ALL the information at his fingertips and makes sure you know he does...and he has no knowledge. Terrified of hand flying above 500' (too much workload)...always descends on the FP profile...regardless of conditions or need...happy to critique if you roll on on in the box, but are 1/2 knot below Vref...and routinely drives the struts through the wings and drops masks. So it would be best for you...and others who choose to shoot first, to as they say down South, "set your ass down" and wait until ALL the facts are out. There may well be more that plays into this that is known and has an impact on what happened. Or, as the Indians say, "better silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..." |
Originally Posted by ATCsaidDoWhat
(Post 1527819)
Pot....meet kettle.
You remind me of a guy who carries EVERYTHING about the plane and procedures on 3X5's in his shirt pocket. Has ALL the information at his fingertips and makes sure you know he does...and he has no knowledge. Terrified of hand flying above 500' (too much workload)...always descends on the FP profile...regardless of conditions or need...happy to critique if you roll on on in the box, but are 1/2 knot below Vref...and routinely drives the struts through the wings and drops masks. So it would be best for you...and others who choose to shoot first, to as they say down South, "set your ass down" and wait until ALL the facts are out. There may well be more that plays into this that is known and has an impact on what happened. Or, as the Indians say, "better silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt..." That said sir, perhaps it time to regain your professional persona and cease with the unwarranted barbs. As you are not a member of the posting or thread police on this site, you also need to relax and allow other to express their opinions regardless if you agree or not. Please read and respect these words of wisdom which you posted. Or, as the Indians say, "better silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt... |
Originally Posted by PotatoChip
(Post 1527680)
I'm throwing all my chips in on captjns's side. He's not dangerous. He's advocating he knows he CAN make mistakes and therefore goes out of his way to mitigate those risks.
If you think, "Sure, I can totally see myself landing at the wrong airport in a modern jet, it could happen to anyone!" Then you, my friends, are just as dangerous. It does not happen to 'anyone'. I guess we'll have to wait and see the video at the JetLag. I love all of you pious ba$tard$. fbh |
Lotta love for you too, you sugoi impious ba$tard!
See you at the Lag... |
Originally Posted by DC8 Driver
(Post 1527757)
Bug off with that ignorant "Atlas Slogan" bull****.
Top 10 New Advertising Slogans for Delta Airlines - July 16, 1987 10. Delta: We're Amtrack with Wings. 9. Delta: Join Our Frequent Near-miss Program. 8. Delta: Ask About Our Out-of-court Settlements. 7. Noisy Engines? We'll Turn 'em Off! 6. Delta: Complimentary Champagne in Free-fall. 5. Enjoy the In-flight Movie on the Plane Next to You. 4. Delta: The Kids Will Love Our Inflatable Slides. 3. Delta: You Think It's So Easy, Get Your Own Damn Plane! 2. Delta: Our Pilots are Terminally Ill and Have Nothing to Lose. 1. Delta: A real man lands where he wants to. |
Originally Posted by frozenboxhauler
(Post 1527839)
You're wrong, Chip. It can happen to anyone one of us.
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Originally Posted by MeXC
(Post 1527848)
Lotta love for you too, you sugoi impious ba$tard!
See you at the Lag... fbh |
Originally Posted by John Carr
(Post 1527791)
Chuck Norris NEVER lands at the wrong. airport. He lands wherever he wants and it simply gets renamed to the intended destination.
Ahahahahahaha!!!!!! |
Originally Posted by Adlerdriver
(Post 1527720)
Well put, Chip. I think captjns's delivery obviously rubbed folks the wrong way but his main point is valid. Throwing the crew under the bus didn't help him make it.
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All great answers to my posts, thanks everyone
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Originally Posted by bcrosier
(Post 1527950)
Plus one. I agree with all of JNS's suggestions. I realize how easy it would be to do, and work darn hard to not do it. As DC8 correctly pointed out, we know what went wrong - the question is WHY did it go wrong.
jns has great pointers on threat/error management, though his presentation (as usual) is not exactly the best... hence the long running congac and bread sticks joke at his expense. |
Hey moderators:
Ummm...could I get the coordinates for the thread with the fat jokes? I mistakingly landed here. It looked like the right thread. The font and color is the same. The proportions of pompous posters is similar. It is night. I'm a fatigued cargo guy. I was hoping to unload a post here to lighten my load and get over to the other one. If I do it quickly, maybe no one will notice. Never mind, someone read it. Should I do the ASAP here or in the other thread? |
Originally Posted by Busboy
(Post 1527372)
Thank goodness it wasn't 3000x50. They'd be lucky to stop.:rolleyes:
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The Jabara airfield manager said it has happened over 20 times in the last ten years, both military and civilian.
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