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DLax85 03-26-2014 06:52 AM


Originally Posted by Pakagecheck (Post 1610212)
Viper,
IF you got an earlier time stamp to a reserve assignment, If you call the scheduler and ask them, if the reserve has not acknowledged the assignment, they will assign it to you.

They most like were assigning it when you put in for it and didn't see your request.

It benefits them you flying it as make-up then they get to keep the reserve for something else.

I'll respectfully disagree with your last statement

It depends on their reserve manning and their target reserve utilization

They are looking to cut costs

If they have plenty of guys sitting on Reserve (getting paid), they'd rather use them then pay another pilot to pick up the trip

TonyC 03-26-2014 01:53 PM


Originally Posted by busdriver12 (Post 1610082)

Turps, do you actually work at FedEx or are you new?



Originally Posted by busdriver12 (Post 1610171)

Sure, Chuck, I'll enlighten you. I've been massively, tediously, trip trading for about 20 years.


OK, so you've got "about" 20 years at FedEx and a little over 4 months at APC, and in that short time you've made more posts than Turps since he joined APC a little more than 4 years earlier, but here's an SA tip.

He's the real deal. And unlike most people, he doesn't hide behind an anonymous handle. With a few seconds of research and some elementary deductive reasoning, you can figure out exactly who he is.

Enlightening.






.

FDXLAG 03-26-2014 02:39 PM


Originally Posted by TonyC (Post 1610711)
OK, so you've got "about" 20 years at FedEx and a little over 4 months at APC, and in that short time you've made more posts than Turps since he joined APC a little more than 4 years earlier, but here's an SA tip.

He's the real deal. And unlike most people, he doesn't hide behind an anonymous handle. With a few seconds of research and some elementary deductive reasoning, you can figure out exactly who he is.

Enlightening.


.

His real name is Tuck Churpin?

busdriver12 03-26-2014 03:23 PM

I never understand why people get so vehemently cranky to others in these threads, when you may not know who they are, and perhaps it is someone you flew with last week. Chuck said, "enlighten me," so I did. I don't feel the need to look up someone's name on the seniority list, especially since people can put any name they like on here. The questions he asks do sound like someone who is new, or doesn't work for the company.

That said, I've talked to some guys who are fairly senior and know almost nothing about trip trading. They manage to get great schedules without the same misery and constant effort that most of us do. It does surprise me when people have little clue of how trip trades work, but if I was able to hold one of my top 100 bid line choices, maybe I wouldn't be familiar with it either.

busdriver12 03-26-2014 03:30 PM


Originally Posted by DLax85 (Post 1610420)
I'll respectfully disagree with your last statement

It depends on their reserve manning and their target reserve utilization

They are looking to cut costs

If they have plenty of guys sitting on Reserve (getting paid), they'd rather use them then pay another pilot to pick up the trip

There have been some times I've wondered about that. A few days in a row, I saw the trips come out at sick time drop, and three hours later, they were still there (that never happens, except for the crappy trips). Then they all disappeared, assuming they were all going to reserves. I'd be angry if I put in for a sick trip pickup, they didn't process them until they assigned them to reserves, and then I got the message, "earlier time stamped," or "within assignment window." But that hasn't happened yet.

One thing you might try if you put in for a makeup for a trip that leaves pretty quickly, is to put it in and call crew scheduling. I hate calling them for anything, but this is the one time I'll call and ask them if nobody else is ahead of me, if they could give me that trip before they assign it to a reserve. The few times I've done that, they've processed it right then. If you don't do that, they could assign it to a reserve before even viewing your makeup request, not intentionally, but just because they're in the middle of assigning reserves.

Chuck Turpen 03-26-2014 06:05 PM


Originally Posted by Pakagecheck (Post 1610212)
Turp,
I specifically called the scheduling manager about 2 years ago about this. This is what I was told...
i. SUB, RAT, PMU - first priority, all equal
ii. Make-up/trip trade - all make-up types and trip trade processed on time stamp, no pecking order.

Then AFB then RSV then vol then draft.

Pakage

Thanks Pakage,
With your's and busdriver's posts I think that the section of the contract I quoted only applies during the view/add window when there are no trades with open time on the table. The rest of the time although not spelled out in the contract it is as the two of you describe.

Chuck Turpen 03-26-2014 06:08 PM


Originally Posted by FDXLAG (Post 1610732)
His real name is Tuck Churpin?

Call me turpentine for short.:D

busdriver12 03-26-2014 09:32 PM

I like that, turpentine. I believe that you are correct about that section of the contract only applying during the time they are assigning open time. However, sometimes the schedulers do not completely adhere to that, they do what is easy. If you put too many restrictions in, they might ignore your general makeup request. Sometimes they just forget to look. I have very little trust in a general makeup request getting the trip I ought to onto my schedule, because it requires the schedulers to make an effort. Some of them do, some don't bother. The contract seems to be ignored upon convenience. But I believe you are right about the way it should work.

AFW_MD11 03-27-2014 06:03 AM


Originally Posted by busdriver12 (Post 1610944)
I like that, turpentine. I believe that you are correct about that section of the contract only applying during the time they are assigning open time. However, sometimes the schedulers do not completely adhere to that, they do what is easy. If you put too many restrictions in, they might ignore your general makeup request. Sometimes they just forget to look. I have very little trust in a general makeup request getting the trip I ought to onto my schedule, because it requires the schedulers to make an effort. Some of them do, some don't bother. The contract seems to be ignored upon convenience. But I believe you are right about the way it should work.

It has been my experience that the schedulers don't typically just "ignore" the contract.

If you feel that they HAVE ignored the contract, call ALPA Contract Enforcement with the details (proof) & they will gladly call over to the company & attempt to correct the situation (in cases where the contract has actually been "ignored"/violated/"accidentally" not followed) - again, that has been my personal experience - ymmv

contract language loopholes/interpretation differences that have already been vetted (& we/the union have typically lost ground over) are a completely DIFFERENT situation than schedulers just "ignoring the contract out of convenience"

Pakagecheck 03-27-2014 07:27 AM


Originally Posted by DLax85 (Post 1610420)
I'll respectfully disagree with your last statement

It depends on their reserve manning and their target reserve utilization

They are looking to cut costs

If they have plenty of guys sitting on Reserve (getting paid), they'd rather use them then pay another pilot to pick up the trip

I can see your point. However, if the trip was open when you submitted it and they then filled it with a reserve, the scheduler is not adhering to the matrix for assignments. I have specifically called them on this and it has worked out. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I think the bosses might want a specific manning usage but the daily scheduler just wants meat in the seat and a bunch on reserve because it makes their job easier.

viperdriver 03-27-2014 07:50 AM

Thursday night when it takes 6 hours for a response they will not do it in accordance with cba. If a Friday am trip comes into open time and you put in for makeup you will never get it before they assign it to a guy on reserve.

Pakagecheck 03-27-2014 08:12 AM


Originally Posted by viperdriver (Post 1611136)
Thursday night when it takes 6 hours for a response they will not do it in accordance with cba. If a Friday am trip comes into open time and you put in for makeup you will never get it before they assign it to a guy on reserve.

Try calling them next time if they don't. Again, the daily scheduler would prefer you do it on make up than have one less on reserve for those airport standby's, ymx and Touluca trips that you(or anyone else) don't want.

kronan 03-27-2014 09:06 AM

If a Friday am trip comes into open time tonight you won't get it because its within the assignment window, you could/should get it if you have a General Makeup request w/no restrictions (effectively volunteering for unpaid reserve, me, I like having the option for an evening cordial so not even an option for me when I'm trapped in domicile for the day)


I disagree with scheduling always following the contract. Their whole goal is to move the freight, and there's been a handful of occasions in my career where I've called them on non-contractual actions. (I've been on standbys where they've tried to assign a show outside of the availability period. Excess landings, illegal DH's, whoops that should be in FC (my bad), where dies it say you're entitled to a hotel, etc)
Contract is the water CRS swims in daily, and I'm confident that they occasionally do forget a contract provision, but there's been too many immediate whoops my bad corrections when I call them on it. No let me look into that and make sure you're correct, which to me-means they were hoping for my ignorance

Pakagecheck 03-27-2014 10:38 AM


Originally Posted by kronan (Post 1611184)
If a Friday am trip comes into open time tonight you won't get it because its within the assignment window, you could/should get it if you have a General Makeup request w/no restrictions (effectively volunteering for unpaid reserve, me, I like having the option for an evening cordial so not even an option for me when I'm trapped in domicile for the day)

Just because a trip is inside the assignment window doesn't limit you from trip specific make up, only trip trading. I have done it.


Originally Posted by kronan (Post 1611184)
I disagree with scheduling always following the contract. Their whole goal is to move the freight, and there's been a handful of occasions in my career where I've called them on non-contractual actions. (I've been on standbys where they've tried to assign a show outside of the availability period. Excess landings, illegal DH's, whoops that should be in FC (my bad), where dies it say you're entitled to a hotel, etc)
Contract is the water CRS swims in daily, and I'm confident that they occasionally do forget a contract provision, but there's been too many immediate whoops my bad corrections when I call them on it. No let me look into that and make sure you're correct, which to me-means they were hoping for my ignorance

I agree they don't always follow the contract. However, if they don't, you have to call them on it. You would be surprised how many of our crew force, won't or don't even look to see if what they did is legal. Again, meat in the seat, any means necessary.

DLax85 03-27-2014 11:08 AM


Originally Posted by viperdriver (Post 1611136)
Thursday night when it takes 6 hours for a response they will not do it in accordance with cba. If a Friday am trip comes into open time and you put in for makeup you will never get it before they assign it to a guy on reserve.

...another example:

IAW the CBA, trips are pulled from pilots who are sick at 7am Memphis time and dropped into Open Time

Those trips not picked up by 10am are rightfully assigned to Reserves

However, scheduling is not always consistent on when these trips are "released" into Open Time so pilots seeking to use various forms of Make Up can view them and submit their make up requests

Sometimes it's 7:01am....sometimes much later

Sometimes much, much, much later!

During 4a2b when Reserve utilization was ultra low, I saw days when "sick trips" were not viewable until 9:30, even 9:45am

Thus, only viewable for 15-30 mins vs 3 hrs

Clearly not within the intent of the contract

When this occurs many guys out on the road doing hub turns, give up and head to bed --- just too painful and fatiguing to stay up and wait out the schedulers

This is where the CBA can easily be tightened

Require the schedulers to push the button and release those trips at a specific time for viewing --- perhaps 7:15am Memphis

busdriver12 03-27-2014 11:43 AM

I definitely agree with the "meat in the seat" theory. I don't think most of the contractual violations are intentional, they are just trying to get the job done quickly, and our contract can be a little complex. Many times I haven't noticed until after the fact, or it was too late anyways, and I think often people don't even realize what happened was not contractual.

With the sick time release, I have seen them release everything and hold back one great trip, two times. Each time I called them and asked if was going to be released, put on hold (pressing the enter button the entire time), a few minutes later....trip released, earlier time stamp, to the same guy. That is one of the only obviously intentional things I have seen.

Putting you in the incorrect (of course longer) sub window, assigning a sub trip out of your window, refusing to do early release in sub though the assigned sub trip is longer than the original, charging for sick trips outside of your rsv period, charging conflicting and different rsv period trips, cancelling a field draft and refusing to give you show pay even though you're in position (what's with that, are they waiting to push the button saying you're in position until the last minute---you can't check in for a field draft). It is a lot better than it used to be, that's for sure. But there still is some questionable stuff going on when things get complicated.

Anthrax 03-27-2014 06:34 PM

Oh my God, this open time system is BROKEN! Utter horse manure. AAAHHHHHHH!

Oh, and IncompetentFool is an idiot!

kwri10s 03-27-2014 07:11 PM

Back to the charters....

I do like that in a effort to reform the charter problem, one of the "wolf pack" has apparently been assigned as a special projects pilot to fly charters to evaluate the threats. See now there's no problem. He now does not have to even fight for the good deals, he is just assigned them. Just cutting out the scheduler middle man. What collusion?

MeXC 03-28-2014 03:26 AM


Originally Posted by kwri10s (Post 1611572)
Back to the charters....

I do like that in a effort to reform the charter problem, one of the "wolf pack" has apparently been assigned as a special projects pilot to fly charters...


What???!!!

Gunpig 03-28-2014 08:48 AM


Originally Posted by kwri10s (Post 1611572)
Back to the charters....

I do like that in a effort to reform the charter problem, one of the "wolf pack" has apparently been assigned as a special projects pilot to fly charters to evaluate the threats.

Capt/FO? Initials please?

CloudSailor 03-28-2014 09:59 AM


Originally Posted by Gunpig (Post 1611858)
Capt/FO? Initials please?

Trip number/date please?

DoodyOfficer 04-08-2014 02:17 PM

I want to thank ALPA for putting out some information regarding charters. From what I'm hearing the individual who is being investigated is not playing the shady union busting games. I wish him the best of luck and hopefully ALPA will put up a strong defense.

However, like I stated earlier ALPA is not legally bound to defend anybody in the union. “In the event of a suit against a member arising out of his employment, ALPA shall not be obligated to provide legal assistance, except to the extent that such action would be within the recognized purposes of ALPA in protecting and advancing the welfare and security of all airline pilots individually and collectively. Further, any question arising as to the justification of such legal assistance in any particular case or set of circumstances shall be resolved by the Executive Council.(ALPA Manual section 41 paragraph c).

This is why I remain consistent and disappointed that the message we’ve received stating “a primary function of this union is the representation and defense of individuals subject to management’s disciplinary process. We are doing that. " I wish this statement would have been more measured with wording like individuals in good standing or something like that.

It was a start. Thanks to all the members who emailed their reps and kept the subject alive.

1st overnite 04-18-2014 06:36 PM

I was bored so I looked at JS's schedule. He is still getting all the good charters. Pretty amazing.

Sum Ting Wong 04-18-2014 07:22 PM

[QUOTE=DoodyOfficer;1619612]I want to thank ALPA for putting out some information regarding charters. From what I'm hearing the individual who is being investigated is not playing the shady union busting games.

What are U hearing?

FDXLAG 04-18-2014 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=Sum Ting Wong;1625903]

Originally Posted by DoodyOfficer (Post 1619612)
I want to thank ALPA for putting out some information regarding charters. From what I'm hearing the individual who is being investigated is not playing the shady union busting games.

What are U hearing?

Two options: He could be playing the daylight union busting game or the shady union building game.

Lifizgud 05-09-2014 08:18 PM

Any new updates on this subject?
 
And can we PULLLEEEAAASSSE stop calling them the wolf pack and assign them the rightful monicker of "Rat Pack"?

moondoggie11 05-12-2014 05:34 PM

I just finished skimming most of this thread which I had deliberately avoided reading before because I knew it would **** me off...and it did...because I have lost out on Charters and Extra trips on numerous occasions to the same rogue group. See something, say something...yeah, to no avail, both company and ALPA. Pretty much gave up on waiting for frozen trips to thaw and attempting to snag 2xxx trips at least six months ago. So at the risk of beating a dead horse, because I think this thread should be kept current until the mystery of Charter acquisition is solved and appropriate action is taken, I'll start off on topic, drift a little, then return to topic.

It did occur to me that one interesting MD-11 statistic would be the number/percentage of guys in your seat that have OTP in their bank during an average month. If it's only 1%, then the usual suspects could have the whole Charter playing field to themselves once they've managed to somehow accumulate the necessary hours. Any more than that and the game is afoot. I suspect it's more like 10% but most guys I've talked to on Sub do not elect OTP for a variety of reasons, mostly because they want their money ASAP and/or don't want to hawk open time even for the extra 25% so it's a relatively small group. Personally, I prefer the OTP because, as a VTO guy, I hawk open time constantly anyway and if the company wants to give me an extra 25% for my trouble I'll take it. That being said, I've only been put in Sub less than 10 times in my career. And I never heard of PMU Recycling until I read this thread. The fact that you can drop a PMU trip and pick it up with trip specific M/U is incomprehensible...an abuse of the system at best.


Originally Posted by FlyBoyd (Post 1593884)
I'm new but not really that hard, IMO.

If you have another window/tab open, you can preload the pickup request. Drop the trip in one window and immediately pick it up in the other preloaded one. Only seconds elapse and you, most likely, beat everyone else with your GMU pickup request (except other OTPs). Do it at a known low pickup time and you are assured a good chance of success.

What makes it fool proof is the inside help.


Originally Posted by C17MooseDriver (Post 1594009)
Your theory only works with instant trip trade processing.

Once you put in a drop request, it may take minutes to hours for that to process. You can't immediately put in a pickup request until that trip pops into OT, which again is at the leisure of the scheduler. Otherwise you'll get a message saying trip is not available.

However, in response to the above posts, and correct me if I'm wrong, any drop request gets processed along with M/U requests in time stamped order. Assuming you didn't get earlier time stamped, you would get the trip...i.e. there is no need to wait for the drop to get processed to submit the pickup request. But during OT Release you would still have to wait six hours to get the good news. So I believe FlyBoyd was correct and this would be true for any drop/pickup like dropping a trip that conflicted with your desired trip.


Originally Posted by capt_zman (Post 1603615)
Heard a rumor today that one of the captain ring leaders got either suspended or fired. Can anyone confirm?

After all the talk about F/Os, I was surprised to hear the rumor that a Capt is being investigated, or worse, for the Charter ripoffs. No discussion I can recall on specific Captains involved. Are the usual suspects still doing it despite being under the microscope and a topic of discussion on APC? Any other shareable news about additional investigations or rumor confirmations greatly appreciated.


Originally Posted by Lifizgud (Post 1640025)
And can we PULLLEEEAAASSSE stop calling them the wolf pack and assign them the rightful monicker of "Rat Pack"?

Finally, the term "wolf pack" they have allegedly given themselves is BS. And, unfortunately, the "Rat Pack" is already taken...the 60s called and they want it back. Rather than pay any tribute to our infamous group they should be called the "back pack" for their ability to chronically stab their fellow pilots in the back. And that's all I have to say about that.

Overnitefr8 05-12-2014 05:58 PM


Originally Posted by moondoggie11 (Post 1641746)
However, in response to the above posts, and correct me if I'm wrong, any drop request gets processed along with M/U requests in time stamped order. Assuming you didn't get earlier time stamped, you would get the trip...i.e. there is no need to wait for the drop to get processed to submit the pickup request. But during OT Release you would still have to wait six hours to get the good news. So I believe FlyBoyd was correct and this would be true for any drop/pickup like dropping a trip that conflicted with your desired trip.

The only problem I see with this technique is that you can't pick up a trip for make up or anyway else unless it is in open time. If you submit a drop and a make up for the same trip at the same time, when you submit the make up it will say "trip not in open time". You have to wait for the drop to be processed. Of course you know it has been submitted and it should be appearing soon (usually, or maybe not usually ) :rolleyes:

moondoggie11 05-12-2014 07:10 PM


Originally Posted by Overnitefr8 (Post 1641773)
The only problem I see with this technique is that you can't pick up a trip for make up or anyway else unless it is in open time. If you submit a drop and a make up for the same trip at the same time, when you submit the make up it will say "trip not in open time". You have to wait for the drop to be processed. Of course you know it has been submitted and it should be appearing soon (usually, or maybe not usually ) :rolleyes:

Once the drop is processed first wouldn't it by definition be in open time...even if only for the nanosecond it (the computer, not the scheduler) took to process your pick up request? Anyone? Buehler?

Gunpig 05-13-2014 04:54 PM


Originally Posted by moondoggie11 (Post 1641823)
Once the drop is processed first wouldn't it by definition be in open time...even if only for the nanosecond it (the computer, not the scheduler) took to process your pick up request? Anyone? Buehler?

Yes but until the moment it's processed you're still on the trip & thus can't pick it back up with general m/u. You can't submit a makeup request for a trip you already hold until it's open

phuzzyz 06-19-2014 05:33 AM

GOOOOOAL! One of the usual suspects scored again!
689/21 Those d/h's from DXB gotta get old some day.....

nocturnalmishin 06-19-2014 06:44 AM


Originally Posted by phuzzyz (Post 1667667)
GOOOOOAL! One of the usual suspects scored again!
689/21 Those d/h's from DXB gotta get old some day.....

Neither an x-pairing nor a charter. What's your point?

phuzzyz 06-19-2014 07:07 AM

This guy gets these types of trips all the time, whether it's a charter, x pairing or line trip. If his calendar wasn't blocked you'd see for yourself. I've been getting time stamped by him for four years and counting. It's hard to believe that anyone is that good at beating out the rest of us and is playing by the same rules.

nocturnalmishin 06-19-2014 07:26 AM

Thanks, got your point. I myself have a DH from DBX coming up, on my regular line trip I bid. My first DH from there, but I DH int'l all the time.

Gunter 06-19-2014 08:35 AM


Originally Posted by phuzzyz (Post 1667742)
This guy gets these types of trips all the time, whether it's a charter, x pairing or line trip. If his calendar wasn't blocked you'd see for yourself. I've been getting time stamped by him for four years and counting. It's hard to believe that anyone is that good at beating out the rest of us and is playing by the same rules.

Looks like a sick drop

Hint- around 0700 scheduling drops trips when you're sick

You're welcome

maddog_fo 06-21-2014 02:06 AM

Initials
 
What a joke! Our chief pilot says they are looking into how to fix the charters, and a guy who works for him with the initials JP is one of the culprits. Just culture indeed!!!

magic rat 07-18-2014 10:33 AM

Rat pack still at it...

FrankTheTank 07-19-2014 03:37 AM


Originally Posted by magic rat (Post 1686941)
Rat pack still at it...

Duh.. Probably even easier these days with many of us enjoying summer vacations and time with family..


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