I guess that would include an ex-chairman and neg. chairman who bid the triple without a pay rate, after saying that one might think twice before bidding it because there was no pay rate? Makes me want to puke.

Change your name to competentIdiot! Hurry before it's taken!

My god, how is it that you and I share the same profession? Really?

This one still sticks in my craw. Hypocrisy at its finest.

Anthrax: I really have no proof of this, and given demonstrated human capacity for idiocy he/she could be "real", but I think CF is a troll. At least that makes me feel a little better about our profession...

Really, I can't take it. Melvis? What, are we two?

It has to be, right? Nothing seems to compute with this guy.

Just so I understand correctly. You DO NOT pickup extra flying with Open Time Priority, then drop and pick back up with general makeup..then having now replenished OTP, rinse & repeat?

Actually they have a point. Its hard to listen to the "Don't fly a disputed Pairing" line when others are really overworking the system. Actually Anthrax I just want my AVATAR next to yours.

When the flying is fine, the lifestyle nice, no one cares. But when the optimizer gets cranked up, and people junior to you are getting sweet deals, there's a problem. Corrupt or not, there's a problem. The company doesn't care because the trips are covered. The union doesn't care unless we do, and we're beginning to care. Open times needs an overhaul. I say we get Sibelius in here and have her fix it. When she does, and it's still a mess, phone Google. And as much as we'd like to host a blanket party for the offenders, we have to tread lightly. Don't want anyone to feel "harassed." Last thing we need here is the company issuing a subpoena, and there we are with the Hong Kong Four. The APC Dozen. Ease off the "trip-traders" and focus on the union. Get everyone you know to mail their reps and let's see if we can't get something in the upcoming contract. With bots and handshakes and the likes, these aren't the good ole days of first come, first serve.

OMG dude, you're a tool. Aren't you the doosh threatening to leave FedEx because it sucks here? Please, and I speak for every Captain that has go to work with you, leave. Go back to where you came from. Your quote would be funny if you weren't serious "people junior to you are getting sweet deals, there's a problem". So no one is allowed any sweet deal if he's junior to you? AYFKM? You are just ignorant dude.

PM me dude, and let's chat.

Sounds to me like you have your panties in a wad. And it's a shame that I would have to explain this to you, since you are a so-called captain at FedEx, but in a seniority-based system, when those junior consistently get a "good deal" then yes, there's a problem. And on an even playing field, when a select few are getting better deals ...

Until I got to the very last line, I thought this post was from Usual Suspect CT….. Because I've heard the EXACT SAME talking points from him. Same terms, same emphasis, same BS. It's waddling, quacking, and shi**ing on the lawn. Ergo, I think it's a (you can fill in the blank)

No I don't.

You're so full of sh!t JS and you and your CHARTER homies know it!!! You guys are effing your fellow co-workers and violating ALPA's Code of Ethics at a minimum. I hope you guys get what's coming to you...

Do you actually think it wouldn't go unnoticed for so long?

Lakeside, I have been here over 13 yrs and am a Capt on the MD-11, I do not need to be patronized on the difference between Charters and X-pairings. Funny how you rationalize it as "HONEST, hard-work". Is that what it is? Finding some caveat to get all the good deal trips, and then requiring both legs of an out-and-back to maintain a 3 in 3 currency requirement. That is honest, hard-work? I am not going to harass you or call you names. I have never met you and I have no idea what your schedule is like. You do have a rep, though, and your posts are not going to help that. NEWSFLASH, do not play the victim in this, you are not.

J.S. was awarded line 2291 for FEB. This consists of ONT and DFW am MEM hub turns. He has not flown any of these trips this month and drops all of them to be available for XTRAS and CHRTRS. He has done this every month for YEARS and will mostly likely do it again for MAR.


J.S., you may have your calendar blocked but there are MANY eyes on you until this problem gets fixed!

As a guy who lived on open time for years, but now looks at being a bottom 10% captain for a looong time before (hopefully) too long, I am now endorsing what I once was against-- a Delta-ish seniority based open time. Why? Because since about Fall 2011 something broke. The same cast of guys always wins. I will lose more than most if we go to that system. Alas--I think it is the best overall solution. BOTS, inside info, or other malfeasance may be in play, but I can show you on my calendar when (something) happened. You cannot always win every quickdraw contest. KB's open time chimes do not explain month after month of similar success. So lets go back to what we know is legit, even if it stings some (like me). I prefer being screwed by my senioroty than screwed by any co-workers.

Not sure we need to go that far Albie! Worked under the delta-ish rules close to 9 years. Our rules here allow for junior guys to turn our turd's into something liveable for us and our families AFTER seniority has run its course in the first round of bidding awards.
Lets not cut our nose off to spite our face.
There is something FISHY going on with the charters and the company knows it! Word is they are watching but waitn on all the evidence before they can legally proceed.

I hate to say it, but, Where is LK when you need him?

I can't believe you said that even in jest!!! :D

Who you gonna call? Ghostbusters.

Asking, "What's in it for me?" and not liking the answer...

I guess I am confused. What is wrong with dropping the trips you have? Have you ever dropped your entire line for the chance for something better? Willing to risk a $0 paycheck. I have. I got a wonderful vto last jan and got nothing I asked for but a guy 40 vto's junior got exactly what I asked for. So, I dropped my entire month and did the 0700 sick call uncle pervy stare at open time every day. A 12 day trip dropped and I was fortunate to get it. It was something way out of my seniority. Gotta be able to risk it to get it, I guess. I have flown with J.S. Curious how many times a day you check open time? I bet he has over 200 a day. Not for everyone, but if he wants to, who cares. If his line is clean, there aren't mixed banks, trip conflicts and trade submissions that require 10 trips typed in. A single m/u request of one trip takes about 5 secs.

I do agree that the system is broken. There are some that are doing some things that are questionable. Management has spoken to what I call the fab 5 and a number of others and no discipline was passed out. Under our current regime, I find it hard to believe they would pass up a chance to thump anyone that they thought was dirty.

I suggest trying his method for a month. Drop all your trips right out of the chute and spend every waking moment on PFC. IF you don't want to, cool, but don't give him grief for it, unless there is some other way which he is getting the trips(i.e. insider info, bot program, or getting the scheduler to process the trades out of order). With him, I don't believe to be the case. I do know that this is being very closely looked at still and if one is willing to risk their future on it, roll the bones!

Does the most senior guy get to pick through the catering and pick out the best the best flavored yogurt too? What about the room on the highest floor of the hotel? Like it or not, there are limits to what seniority gets you and for the most part it's spelled out in the contract. Your seniority allows you to bid before the guy/gal right behind you. It does not guarantee you will fly a better schedule.

What we are talking about (recycled OTP) is not spelled out so perhaps it needs to be addressed by US as a union, not as lone wolves attacking fellow crewmembers. Didn't someone get fired for that last year? The company does not care as long as the trips are getting flown, so it will be us that fixes any glitches.

That said, if a guy wants to stay attached to his IPhone/PDA/Laptop/etc. hours at a time, eating coffee beans to work his/her schedule then more power to him/her. With the exception of OTP recycling, which someone most likely got a bad deal to even get OTP, we should not be *****ing about something a fellow union member is doing, that you could be doing also, but are too lazy or not willing to work for.

So Pakagechek, based on your experience, what do you think the odds are of dropping your entire line and scoring month after month after month of nothing but good deal trips that add up to more than your original BLG? And after scoring your honestly gained 12 day trip, did you feel compelled to block your calendar?
Keep in mind, many of the people reading this thread have more than a decade of experience trying to work within the rules of our trip trading and open time system. A bunch of type A, moderately intelligent guys who really like to avoid pain and pursue good deals on the job. And out of more than 4000 of those kind of guys, a single digit few have figured out how to work within the rules to build consistently awesome months full of nothing but charters. That's really what you want me to believe?
I don't believe it.

If there was nothing to hide, then why block your schedule. There is no way month after month the same people can get all the charters. Get a charter, be dropped, then get another one. Come on! Charters are frozen for couple of hours to a whole day. Then when the chosen ones are available, they are released. Or is it that you are all lucky, every month.

When I click on someone's schedule that I'm flying with and it comes up blocked, I instantly think "Oh crap". More than likely I'm flying with a non-member, buddy-f'er or strange ranger. It's one of those things that makes the hair on the back of your neck rise. I do not give them the benefit of the doubt.

Paycheck I drop my entire schedule every month. I hawk open time in a fair manner. Sometimes I get good deals sometimes I don’t. I have been beat by JS numerous times. I have no clue how. I can watch a trip unfreeze and I put it in and it’s already assigned like 3 seconds after it’s unfrozen. I’ve had it unfreeze I put it in then an error will occur then it freezes back up. The arrogance that JS and others display is a character trait of a scum bag, so I do not give him or others like him the benefit of doubt. Additionally, I personally know numerous other crew members that I’m in contact with throughout the month that do the exact thing I do. They too get beat by JS and the same handful of others. I’m fairly young, know how to use a computer, I workout, have good eyesight, and I know my reflexes and fast twitch muscles should win a few of these draws but they don’t.

Rock,
I did the posture for charters thing for about a year. I was pretty fortunate and some months, that was my entire month. other months, not so much. It has been a couple of years, but whether some want to believe it, it is a mindset and a lifestyle. Can you leave tomorrow for a 12 day trip? Or dh out this afternoon? Take a trip you put in for and haven't looked at yet? Or you bid poorly and can't do that carryover charter because you have a trip next month and open time isn't out yet but there is a sunday departure. While there are 4000 pilots, we are talking about 600 per seat for these charters. My seat is easier. There are a descent amount of older guys that are technically challenged. Over half, never even look at open time. Another big group, maybe look a couple times a day. Once you get a trip, being a charter, it has a chance of getting cnx'd and then the OTP thing kicks in. Now you are in the driver's seat.

Just because one has internet access for over 10 years, I wouldn't qualify it as a decade of experience. I just flew with a guy that didnt know how to cancel a trip trade request and he thought he was savvy. I have spoken with others that are only looking at 7 am. On average, how many times a day do you look at open time? Not accusatory but do you ever get locked out for hitting the magic 300 or get up to download that last beer in the middle of the night and log on to PFC? You will be surprised what you will see. But, once you see something, you also gotta be willing to act. Do you have more than one device being used at once? If you ask your wife, look at your schedule, or call corp travel to see if you can get a ticket..... too late.

I wasn't a pro, but I was a AAA ball player and I have never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. On multiple layovers, I was accused of being a bot guy. I never blocked my schedule. I personally think that shouldn't be an option but right now it is. If you don't think it is possible, go all in. Drop your entire month, spend all day on the computer and be willing to leave at a moment's notice. There are definite ways to posture yourself with your schedule to make it easier for you to be a player.

I'll equate your numbers. 3-4% of high school football players play in college. Of all of the college players that go pro it is less than 2%. So do I think it is possible, yes, especially once one starts running with OTP.
As I said, I think a couple might be doing some questionable tactics, but I know for a fact that they are being watched, to include computer keystrokes, to try and catch them.

Just a litmus test, since you logged on to APC, how many times have you checked open time on PFC?

Doody,
Obviously you are somewhat successful. So you may have won the battle on a few and not know he was playing. OTP is the trump card plain and simple. IF you use it to get another xpairing or charter and it gets dropped, you are in it again. I picked up an xpairing that 2 minutes after I was awarded it, it got cancelled and I was put in sub, declined and then more OTP. At one point, I had over 100 hrs. And once you get one of those trips, they have a much higher propensity to get cancelled. So, you can be fast as lightning and in good shape, but if the overweight chain smoker eating greasy food slithers up to the table with the card licked and stuck to his forehead, chanting, "I got your stopper right here", you are SOL. Not saying it's fair, just saying it's legal and possible. Does it need fixed, definitely! I personal not a fan of Albie's suggestion but at least it is an option.

I'm not a fan of the seniority based OT system either. I do believe real time trip trading would eliminate a lot of these issues. The only thing it would not eliminate is BOT dudes. Thanks for shedding more light on the OTP process. Many of us understand bits and pieces of it but until one has monthly access to this they can't fully understand all the ins and outs. It's a broke system. Real time trip trading eliminates a lot of this to include the scheduler who might walk away from his desk when the trades are in until his buddy puts in his OTP then processes the trip trade. OTP should not be recycled its a 1 time good deal at 125% not a complete recycle month after month.
I think the union should put out information on this very subject. A couple months ago they put together a nice presentation on how we get paid. I also believe they should make a stance whether they believe it's legit or to knock it off.

I not sure if this is the same guy, but I had a long layover with a former purple nugget and over several drinks, he told me he had his high school computer teacher or somebody like that create a program to search open time to improve his schedule as a lower 48 commuter to Anchorage. That was the pre-bot time frame. But I'm sure if you get a computer guy smart enough, they can find a program around the current system.

I'm not an 11 pilot, but regardless, this isn't right. I'm not sure how it's done, but something isn't right when the same guys "win" open time all of the time.

Totally agree. For a transparent process, I also think that should include our schedules. I do believe that if there are bot's, they will eventually be found. I have a bud that owns an IT company and over stogies and cocktails, we discussed this. He laughed and said, "dude, for a bottle of 20yr old scotch, I can hook you up. Just not worth my career.

As you have experienced, if you are willing to work at it, you can significantly improve your schedule and IMHO Albie's option would limit this. But with that said, it is an option and since I don't have one yet to offer, or heard of another, I wouldn't completely discount it.

I guess, one option would be, limit of pairing over x hours to once a quarter or once you pick up the trip, no more for a rolling 3 months. IE, you pick up a 60 hr xpairing in Jan and the number is say 20, you are sidelined until april for them. You can still play with normal trips. This would extend past the otp window and allow other players shots. Also, no recycling of the trip. i.e., pick it up with OTP drop it and pick it back up with normal mu. Just spitballin

Would real-time trip trading eliminate the unfair advantage from bots? Probably not. Bots have changed the game, and from what I hear, it's virtually impossible for the company to tell who is and who's is not using them. Or the company doesn't care so long as the trips are covered. How about automated windows for processing open time? Every hour on the hour, every two hours, the open times trips are doled out according to whoever put the bid in and based on seniority. If the trip is time critical, i.e., shows within ninety minutes, then the trip goes to reserve. Junior guys won't like this ... until they have some seniority. But I can say as an airbus guy that perhaps the top thirty percent are awarded decent schedules from the bid pack, and the rest scramble month-to-month. In a seniority-based system, which is the proven fair method for pilots as a whole, why not add a little of that into the much coveted open time process?

A,
in the 11 OTP, is the game changer and the recycling of it. Bots could be out there, but IMHO they aren't. Not saying that at one time, this wasn't the case but not now. My IT bud said that it could be traceable. Since the Purple Inquisition, I know a couple of players that dropped out, or at least backed way off. If these few that are still hitting it hard, are doing it. It is gonna cost someone a career. Just my basic opinion.

Your reserve plan won't work. Among the main reasons we went into 4a2b was contract 2006 and opening up the reserve assignments to the open time frenzy. This allowed the company to reduce their reserve manning, which they like. Nothing we want will jeopardize this.

It is good to see the discussion about all of this has started. It's a start. The next step is to get enough guys to put our Union dues to work and get the MEC to formally address this. Contact your Block Rep. today. This isn't rocket surgery! :)

The biggest problem is the inconsistencies with how "good deal" open time trips are assigned. And since the same individuals get them all the time the perception exists that something fishy is going on. Case in point.

Scenario 1: The past week there were 3-4 great x-pairings (international double deadheads). They were frozen for about 4-5 days for everybody to see. Now mind you there are probably a lot of people with legitimate OTP because of all the weather cancellations in IND, EWR, etc over the past month. Were these great trips unfrozen and made available at the normal time in the morning when trips are processed? No, they were made available at some random, obscure time in the afternoon and processed almost instantaneously. Not allowing individuals with legitimate OTP the opportunity to request them. The recipients of these trips the same cast of characters.

Scenario 2. Another good deal trip is available in open time (previous months). It is not processed for 5-7 hours. Half a day later you get the "Earlier Time Stamp". You look and again the same cast of characters got the trip. Did they get it because of OTP?

Why did they process one trip instaneously and the other take 5-7 hours to process? And since it benefited the same people, is something fishy going on? Until everything is on the up an up, there is going to be the perception that guys like, Lakeside, are cheating the system some way.