"Lie Flat" Seats
12-03-2015 | 12:30 AM
#61
Organizational Learning
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 0
From: Directly behind the combiner
Will it always be now that you feel like nobody cared about you then, so you're justified in not caring about anybody else but yourself?
And all of that was negotiated outside of RLA Section 6, when we didn't have an under-manned peak looming.
Neither of those occurred during RLA Section 6 negotiations.
You can be thankful the "USPS Contract" LOA didn't go their way and you don't have to work an additional 48 TAFB at straight time (that's 4 Out & Backs, not 2 days). Enjoy those days off. Oh, and enjoy the extra jobs (and interview preps) that produced.
The B-777 Override LOA didn't die on the vine -- it was poisoned by The Company's invocation of §4.A.2.b. To add insult to injury, the override negotiated in the current CBA falls far short of what was negotiated in that LOA.
Look around the AOC. Do you think those Atlas pilots "assisting" our efforts and other pilots would have turned around and gone home if we hadn't reached a TA? Do you think they would have flown another 10, 20, or 30% more even if it was above the scope limit per our contract and subject to scope penalty payments? Maybe we could have ruined peak. Maybe we could have just enjoyed our time off and racked up some scope penalty money while the operation continued to function, albeit at a less efficient rate. I was not scared to strike. I was scared that we would never, never, never be released and spend 2-3 years in negotiations purgatory that would offer very little extra monetary benefit.
I'm sick and tired of hearing, we would never be released to strike. So what!? We didn't need to strike to have an effect. We had already withdrawn our goodwill, we didn't need to withdraw our services. Why do you think The Company came off their stance of delay, delay, delay in the first place?
You've made it very clear this CBA works for you, personally.
That's nice.
.
12-03-2015 | 12:31 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,065
Likes: 40
From: 767 Captain
Okay genius...If you bother to read the OP's scenario, or even the quote you posted, you'd see that when he looked at deviating, he found that "1st class options were virtually nil." That doesn't mean NO first class flights were available on ANY airline at ANY price out of MEM.
Bothering to read further...The OP went on to state that after he arrived in ORD, there were no seats available on the scheduled flight or other airlines. The key point is that he was now in ORD, and there were no 1st class seats available out of ORD. Perhaps he should have been booked through some other city.
Bothering to read further...The OP went on to state that after he arrived in ORD, there were no seats available on the scheduled flight or other airlines. The key point is that he was now in ORD, and there were no 1st class seats available out of ORD. Perhaps he should have been booked through some other city.
Further, based on the FACT that his trip had to be revised to find him a seat (ANY seat) before he even left Memphis, I think it's quite likely that seats in any class of service were difficult to come by that point. Since he was flying the scheduled DH, changes to his flight AFTER he arrived at ORD were not possible.
I think you need to re-read the OP's scenario. He didn't get to ORD and find out he had no seat to ANC. He knew he had no first class seat before he left MEM. That was the whole point of the trip revision. The original DH had no seats. They revised his trip so that he had an actual seat on a flight from MEM to ANC through ORD.
When he got to ORD, he had already checked in for his flight and committed to MEM-ORD-ANC. He had a ticket to ANC from MEM connecting through ORD. It just wasn't in first class. It was an RJ from MEM to ORD which probably never has first class. He was booked in coach (on the scheduled DH) from ORD to ANC because that was the only class of service still available. He got to ORD and hoped the "hail Mary" upgrade might work, but reality struck and he was stuck in coach.
As a long time ANC commuter, I can attest to the fact that there is only ONE city with multiple departures each day to ANC and that city is SEA. Most other carriers provide spotty seasonal service utilizing one flight each day from places like ORD, DEN, PHX, LAX and MSP.
If he was deviating, perhaps he could have "booked through some other city". Since he was on the scheduled DH, he had no choice of which city he connected through.
All this talk about one of our pilots having to be proactive in making sure the company books him into the seats agreed to in our CBA, on a scheduled flight, is ludicrous. They scheduled it, they should be held responsible for making it happen. Or, revise the trip's deadhead, if that's what it takes.
I totally agree with you in theory. We shouldn't have to go to any extra effort to ensure our contractual rights to the proper DH class of service are protected. Based on the pathetic track record of our union on even bothering to file grievances on far bigger issues, I have to be more pragmatic. There is no monetary or other tangible penalty for company failure in this particular situation. You and I and whoever else we can rally to our cause can ride out to battle the windmills but I'm not very confident that the results will change. The only person who is going to lose out is the pilot who chooses to rely on the system and ends up in a coach middle seat.
What you're suggesting is a cultural change that places true value on compliance with the CBA. The only thing Global Travel looks at right now is the scheduled DH on the pairing. If those FC seats are sold out, they don't have the option to find another flight on another carrier that meets the class of service requirements. They pat you on the head and put you on the "waiting list" to make you feel better. Deviating (along with the inherent risks) is the only way to utilize those other options. In this specific case, it seems like no amount of creative trip revisions was going to solve the class of service problem.
ANC is a unique destination. Summer is crazy busy. Off season, airlines cut or completely stop their service. First class seats run out. No changes to the contract or potential penalties imposed on company failures is going to change that reality. Sometimes you just can't get what you want.
Last edited by Adlerdriver; 12-03-2015 at 12:45 AM.
12-03-2015 | 01:34 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 2,889
Likes: 1
What if the shoe was on the other foot? Who is selfish then?
Would pilots who wanted to keep the HILO and tour in hotels and chase women around Asia on the company dime be selfish--because it meant flying in coach for everyone else who just wants to get back home ASAP to their family?
Are pilots who wanted to deadhead across the globe in First Class on $10000 Emirates tickets selfish?--even if it meant pilots in an FDA had to pay an additional $10,000 in education costs for their kids to attend schools abroad?
Are pilots who wanted to make more than $335 on this contract per hour, making over $2000 day day at work selfish, even if it meant no raise for the new hires, or a raise for new hire FDA pilots--for at least 2-3 more years?
This contract did not provide everything for everyone. Show me a contract that has. There were tradeoffs, and everyone has their own pet area that they wanted to improve.
Here is the cold hard truth: It was not about me. 57% voted for this because they thought it was the best deal overall for THEIR family, THEIR situation, and THEIR career, given the alternatives. The fact is there were some improvements in this contract including
--a rolling deviation bank (which helps ANY pilot that commutes)
--a system allowing reserve on secondary lines (which helps guys who want to bid reserve but have more options)
--a host of improvements to the FDA including education and travel improvements.
All I have done is point out that for some pilots, there were some wins. As a pilot in the FDA, I see some significant improvements. The reason I benefited wasn't because anyone was looking out for me individually, but because I chose to go to an FDA.
If you love being a martyr, Knock yourself out.
I think you define "selfish" as "someone has a benefit I do not get or want". With the old contract, once a guy touched the FDA he was untouchable and didn't have to leave until the company excessed or they bid out. Under the new rules, which eliminate FEPP going forward, anyone senior can bid back over here anytime and displace me or the other selfish FDA pilots if you want to get some of these perks. Plenty of guys have bid in the last few years, and the domicile has a smattering of very senior pilots who migrated over from other left seats. I am not trying to be snarky. However, when I have pointed out "hey--there is a little bit of good stuff here and there is this deal" the response is an online blanket party. That's fine--I really don't care--but to ignore the benefits that came out of this contract is intellectually dishonest. There were some improvements. The poor schmuck on a Memphis secondary line trip to Anchorage stuck in coach is not in a good spot. My comments to him were not mocking, and again--as Adler pointed out--not sure there is even a fix. But for those pilots who face those challenges every time they go to work internationally, things got a little better. And that didn't just benefit me, but a host of other pilots as well...
12-03-2015 | 01:57 AM
#64
Organizational Learning
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 0
From: Directly behind the combiner
You're not a commuter, so it doesn't matter to you. I get it. But to accuse those who did use the benefit to make commuting easier, or to just see a little bit of the world (not all FDA pilots are married, you know) of using the benefit to chase women on The Company's dime is absurd. Not only did it not cost The Company a dime, the character assassination is beyond the pale.
.
12-03-2015 | 03:07 AM
#66
"blue collar thug"!
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,614
Likes: 0
From: A proponent of...
This is the reality....the contract was approved by 57% of the voters. That should be an acknowledgement/indictment of what a pathetic agreement it is. Then throw in the divide and conquer the Company gets with the divisiveness that it has created; that is icing on the cake.
Total friggin embarrassment. IMO of course.
Total friggin embarrassment. IMO of course.
12-03-2015 | 03:53 AM
#67
Organizational Learning
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,948
Likes: 0
From: Directly behind the combiner
12-03-2015 | 05:25 AM
#68
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,212
Likes: 22
From: Two Wheeler FrontSeat
I am just pointing out that for all the gloom and doom and angst about the contract, there ARE some wins in here for SOME of our pilots. Considering the fact EVERY trip in Asia starts with a DH, and the rather uncomfortable coach seating on some international carriers, the business class for 2.5 hours or more was a win for some of the pilot group.
So...if I let you down, sorry. Just because someone posts on APC that "this contract had nothing but givebacks..." does not make it the truth. There are some benefits for some of the pilot group.
As far as "loss or respect", give me a ******** break. I am about 1% of APC that is actually known, and I have never hid my identity. Maybe you are a senior ANC captain, or a new hire who my company helped get hired. As it is...you could also be a 12 year old in his PJs in the basement, and I certainly don't give a rat's ass who you are. I don't have any idea. If you want to email me in VIPS I'm not hard to find if you want to let me know what I disappointment I turned out to be.
Nobody gave two ****s about me and the FO crowd when the retirement age spiked up. Some of the folks who post here regularly supported the original FDA LOA, which had zero education allowance, a $2300 housing subsidy, and the ability to send pilots non-voluntarily abroad for 90 straight days. This contract had substantial improvements for the FDA crowd. The moving bank has tremendous value for all commuters. The OP *****ed about riding coach one way to Anchorage, about 5 hours. Two months ago my trip would have had 2 4 + hour rides in coach, and again....we DH on EVERY trip in the FDA. For 120+ pilots, not just me, the improvements here were real and tangible. I've seen pictures of PR, recently retired "full sized" former F-15 driver and 777 captain, jammed in coach on an intra-Asia flight. 777 guys and MD11 guys also benefit from the new DH parameters. The empathy I had for the OP was real, because dammit that is what commuting was like here EVERY trip until the new TA.
You may never know how how much you could or could not have gotten on this last TA. What I will tell you is I never saw the company EVER come back and sweeten the deal when the 777 override died on the vine. They never came back after the postal bid LOA didn't go their way. Perhaps they would have crawled on their knees back to us this round. Considering the fact I have pilots who have left Delta, American, and Southwest in the last 6 months to come here, I am not sure the FDAs would have gone unfilled, nor the schedules been cancelled. Look around the AOC. Do you think those Atlas pilots "assisting" our efforts and other pilots would have turned around and gone home if we hadn't reached a TA? Do you think they would have flown another 10, 20, or 30% more even if it was above the scope limit per our contract and subject to scope penalty payments? Maybe we could have ruined peak. Maybe we could have just enjoyed our time off and racked up some scope penalty money while the operation continued to function, albeit at a less efficient rate. I was not scared to strike. I was scared that we would never, never, never be released and spend 2-3 years in negotiations purgatory that would offer very little extra monetary benefit.
Contracts, business, and negotiations are full of trade offs. This TA had a bunch of things that benefited many pilots. It also failed to reach some goals. I didn't go out and campaign for this TA...I wrote one letter based on my experience watching the negotiations from the perspective of someone who had been involved in the past. I shared my opinion at the HKG road show. That's it. I didn't write letters, campaign, or make phone calls. I voted, and respected my colleagues to do the same. I was ready to move forward regardless of whether or not it passed. My caution--and only concern--was that turning it down with the expectation of getting more later was not going to provide a fast resolution. I was also concerned it might not provide a solution that was considerably more lucrative. I may have been wrong. 57% were similarly pragmatic. I don't think that makes them selfish, but rather just guys and gals who had to choose between two less than perfect options.
I wasn't trying to screw anyone. I was trying to keep guys from getting screwed with false expectations. And while the OP in this thread complains about a 1-off bad deal, that would be "standard ops" for everyone operating internationally on flights less than 5 hours until we got the new deal.
So...if I let you down, sorry. Just because someone posts on APC that "this contract had nothing but givebacks..." does not make it the truth. There are some benefits for some of the pilot group.
As far as "loss or respect", give me a ******** break. I am about 1% of APC that is actually known, and I have never hid my identity. Maybe you are a senior ANC captain, or a new hire who my company helped get hired. As it is...you could also be a 12 year old in his PJs in the basement, and I certainly don't give a rat's ass who you are. I don't have any idea. If you want to email me in VIPS I'm not hard to find if you want to let me know what I disappointment I turned out to be.
Nobody gave two ****s about me and the FO crowd when the retirement age spiked up. Some of the folks who post here regularly supported the original FDA LOA, which had zero education allowance, a $2300 housing subsidy, and the ability to send pilots non-voluntarily abroad for 90 straight days. This contract had substantial improvements for the FDA crowd. The moving bank has tremendous value for all commuters. The OP *****ed about riding coach one way to Anchorage, about 5 hours. Two months ago my trip would have had 2 4 + hour rides in coach, and again....we DH on EVERY trip in the FDA. For 120+ pilots, not just me, the improvements here were real and tangible. I've seen pictures of PR, recently retired "full sized" former F-15 driver and 777 captain, jammed in coach on an intra-Asia flight. 777 guys and MD11 guys also benefit from the new DH parameters. The empathy I had for the OP was real, because dammit that is what commuting was like here EVERY trip until the new TA.
You may never know how how much you could or could not have gotten on this last TA. What I will tell you is I never saw the company EVER come back and sweeten the deal when the 777 override died on the vine. They never came back after the postal bid LOA didn't go their way. Perhaps they would have crawled on their knees back to us this round. Considering the fact I have pilots who have left Delta, American, and Southwest in the last 6 months to come here, I am not sure the FDAs would have gone unfilled, nor the schedules been cancelled. Look around the AOC. Do you think those Atlas pilots "assisting" our efforts and other pilots would have turned around and gone home if we hadn't reached a TA? Do you think they would have flown another 10, 20, or 30% more even if it was above the scope limit per our contract and subject to scope penalty payments? Maybe we could have ruined peak. Maybe we could have just enjoyed our time off and racked up some scope penalty money while the operation continued to function, albeit at a less efficient rate. I was not scared to strike. I was scared that we would never, never, never be released and spend 2-3 years in negotiations purgatory that would offer very little extra monetary benefit.
Contracts, business, and negotiations are full of trade offs. This TA had a bunch of things that benefited many pilots. It also failed to reach some goals. I didn't go out and campaign for this TA...I wrote one letter based on my experience watching the negotiations from the perspective of someone who had been involved in the past. I shared my opinion at the HKG road show. That's it. I didn't write letters, campaign, or make phone calls. I voted, and respected my colleagues to do the same. I was ready to move forward regardless of whether or not it passed. My caution--and only concern--was that turning it down with the expectation of getting more later was not going to provide a fast resolution. I was also concerned it might not provide a solution that was considerably more lucrative. I may have been wrong. 57% were similarly pragmatic. I don't think that makes them selfish, but rather just guys and gals who had to choose between two less than perfect options.
I wasn't trying to screw anyone. I was trying to keep guys from getting screwed with false expectations. And while the OP in this thread complains about a 1-off bad deal, that would be "standard ops" for everyone operating internationally on flights less than 5 hours until we got the new deal.
12-03-2015 | 05:57 AM
#69
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,201
Likes: 0
I can't believe the whole "no voters voted purely for the good of others while yes voters were selfish" argument is still being pushed. Fortunately, the only place I hear/read comments like that is on this website, which has a very solid record of being a distortion of reality.
Back to the actual topic of this thread...it doesn't take a lot of effort to make our contract (old and new) work for you, but it does take some. I commute. A lot. 95% of the time on deadheads. I haven't flown in coach this year. That has become a goal of mine because sitting in coach sucks. Especially if you are taller than average. So I make it a priority to bid seats and trips that allow me to avoid that literal ass pain. Our contract gives us a lot of flexibility in that area, and for me, taking a proactive approach to make it work is well worth avoiding being wedged in the middle seat of the back row between two sweaty fat chicks. Maybe I'm just selfish, but I enjoy the sport of making contracts, laws and tax codes work for me.
Back to the actual topic of this thread...it doesn't take a lot of effort to make our contract (old and new) work for you, but it does take some. I commute. A lot. 95% of the time on deadheads. I haven't flown in coach this year. That has become a goal of mine because sitting in coach sucks. Especially if you are taller than average. So I make it a priority to bid seats and trips that allow me to avoid that literal ass pain. Our contract gives us a lot of flexibility in that area, and for me, taking a proactive approach to make it work is well worth avoiding being wedged in the middle seat of the back row between two sweaty fat chicks. Maybe I'm just selfish, but I enjoy the sport of making contracts, laws and tax codes work for me.
12-03-2015 | 06:13 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,756
Likes: 0
I can't believe the whole "no voters voted purely for the good of others while yes voters were selfish" argument is still being pushed. Fortunately, the only place I hear/read comments like that is on this website, which has a very solid record of being a distortion of reality.
Back to the actual topic of this thread...it doesn't take a lot of effort to make our contract (old and new) work for you, but it does take some. I commute. A lot. 95% of the time on deadheads. I haven't flown in coach this year. That has become a goal of mine because sitting in coach sucks. Especially if you are taller than average. So I make it a priority to bid seats and trips that allow me to avoid that literal ass pain. Our contract gives us a lot of flexibility in that area, and for me, taking a proactive approach to make it work is well worth avoiding being wedged in the middle seat of the back row between two sweaty fat chicks. Maybe I'm just selfish, but I enjoy the sport of making contracts, laws and tax codes work for me.
Back to the actual topic of this thread...it doesn't take a lot of effort to make our contract (old and new) work for you, but it does take some. I commute. A lot. 95% of the time on deadheads. I haven't flown in coach this year. That has become a goal of mine because sitting in coach sucks. Especially if you are taller than average. So I make it a priority to bid seats and trips that allow me to avoid that literal ass pain. Our contract gives us a lot of flexibility in that area, and for me, taking a proactive approach to make it work is well worth avoiding being wedged in the middle seat of the back row between two sweaty fat chicks. Maybe I'm just selfish, but I enjoy the sport of making contracts, laws and tax codes work for me.
I don't understand why people are still arguing the contract. It's done. There's no reason to insult each other, online or in person. Now we just have to make sure it is enforced, for ourselves and others.
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