ATI Jumpseat - Denied
 

For those who are unaware, since the ABX pilot strike in late November (2 day event), ATI has denied and restricted all ABX pilots from their jumpseats. This denial from a reciprocal jumpseat agreement has been implemented by the management team at ATI who has declared any ABX pilot to be a “safety and/or security concern”. The repudiation of access has not directly come from the rank and file crewmembers at ATI.

Although ATI management claims safety and security as their reason, when asked to articulate further about this alleged reasoning, they have been unable or unwilling to substantiate their claim. The entire process is an attack on the long-standing practice of the purpose for jumpseats and the authority of the pilot in command regarding the occupancy of these seats.

The ABX Exco has, since the end of the strike, encourage ABX pilots to allow ATI pilots continued access to jumpseats if they desired. This is regardless to the lack of reciprocation for the ABX pilots. Throughout the past months the ABX Exco has expressed [to ABX pilots] their desire to allow time for the ATI MEC to persuade their management to reaffirm their own PIC’s authority to handle any potential concern and to continue the industry practice of reciprocal jumpseats. To date there has been no change. The term reciprocal is self-explanatory and enough time has expired for the ATI MEC to resolve their management difficulties if they desired to do so.

Until such a time ATI reinstates the reciprocal part of their reciprocal agreement, I will no longer welcome the ATI pilot on-board the jumpseat and encourage other ABX’ers [and other pilots industry-wide] to do the same. ATI needs to be restored to an industry standard in this area, regardless of being a home-based airline, the benefit and use of the seat is for their members and others in the industry.

Yeah they're not riding on my jump seat.

Position update: Originally, the letter prohibiting ABX from jump seating was authored from the ATI Director of Operations. Since this time, the Vice President of ATI denies that the issue is not the company's but instead its being generated from the MEC Chairman, this information came from ABX VP. Knowing the VP and the tactics of division employed by management, I'm sure that this is not the case. Hopefully the captains at ATI will stand up to their managements attempt to destroy their Captains Authority to control their jump seats. If this happened at ABX, I am confident that within a matter of hours our membership would have corrected the situation.
Even though a comment has been made by their MEC that I will never ride an ATI jumpseat.........their guys are welcome on mine any day!

The problem it's the division that exists among ATI's pilot group. There are guys that supported our strike, want a joint certificate and are really pi**ed off at the jumpseat ban. Then, you have a few duchebags that think they'll benefit from screwing ABX pilots. I want to beleive this last group is a minority, but saddly enough, their MEC falls in this category and keeps feeding them b.s.
I hope that with all the newhires at ATI, they'll be able to get rid of this union leaders and steer the ship in the right direction.

I'm inclined to agree; however, I'm tired that as two groups we are giving management their nightly "orgasm" as they read this forum. Maybe a little leadership from both groups will go along way toward spoiling management's day. Spoke to Z and he's ready........what about you T?

Guys,
Don't fall victim to union busting 101. We all have been through this BS before. Don't let emotion cloud your actions!

You guys all seem to forget that ABX was sporadically denying ATI jumpseats PRIOR to the strike. I don't know why, but it was done.

I don’t want anyone to get lost in the side-show of things. There isn’t any hidden agenda here. The issue of reciprocal jumpseats is not union busting. Jumpseats were not issues (overall) prior to the ABX strike….why would they be a concern afterward. There have been 4 occurances prior to the strike [2 at ATI, 2 at ABX], none of which warrant wholesale actions. If that were the case, either the union or company, should have formally dissolved their agreements. Either ATI management or their MEC has made an inappropriate decision, one that abrogates a written j/s agreement, industry standards, and undermines the authority of the PIC.

Regardless of the author dictating ABX pilots are restricted from the jumpseat, the ATI MEC is charged with resolving the concern, something they have failed to do. If MC or any other ABX pilot wants to open their seats to ATI, it’s their individual choice. I fail to understand that logic given the circumstances and timeliness at this point.

Im trying to extend on olive branch to the ATI membership before the nuke falls.......and its being loaded as we speak.

Management trying to get crews to fight amongst each other is nothing new. Crews need to take care of each other.
Looks like the ATI MEC is not interested in helping out here. And if that is true,shame on them.
MC, good for you with the olive branch.

Look I live in an ATI serviced Amazon station and it would be convenient for me to ride on ATI to work occasionally to ILN. If I can't get a ride they can't get a ride simple as that.

Gotcha K. The MEC at ATI according to JV is the stumbling block in this issue. Without leadership there WILL be ramifications. Unfortunately the rank and file members at ATI are getting ready to be screwed nationwide.

I think the problem was the posting of:
ATI pilots fortunately for you, you're home based. I guarantee you will never ride in an ABX jumpseat again.
Coupled that with the jumpseat not being reciprocal in the months prior to that either has caused problems. I would really be surprised if an ATI pilot would actually rely on a booked ABX jumpseat.

What about American,southwest,virgin,all IBT? Plus commitments from all pilot groups who honor captains authority and don't hide behind their management and MEC ? It's going to become very awkward for ATI pilots. I suggest the rank and file stand up and be counted on this issue.

None of them are IBT. AA - APA. SWA - SWAPA. VX - ALPA. Nice try, though.

:rolleyes:

I'm sorry I confused you. Let me state it clearly. The following pilot groups are being contacted to revoke your reciprocal agreements due to your MEC's position on jumpseats.
All IBT carriers, southwest,American, UPS,Virgin, all nationwide Alpa carriers.
Was that better. ATI might be able to ride with NAC or Florida West.
Nicer try huh?

Agree with you Kougarok. I would feel the same way.

First of all, I guarantee that the ATI MEC is not the roadblock. The ATI MEC in no way overrides the authority of the Captain.

Secondly, anyone remember PSA 1771? How about FedEx 705? If not, feel free to look them up. But in the context of that history, what manager in their right mind would accept that risk given the things we've all endured here? Especially in this day and age. Running an airplane is one thing. Running a company is another.

Third, and I could be far off base here, but does 1224 or who ever is pushing for this universal ban of ATI from jumpseats really feel this is truly justified or even called for? I guess so. But ALPA National sure doesn't, as evidenced by the call they made regarding the legality of the strike, and how ATI was to conduct itself, from day 1. So there might be a few friends of friends at various airlines who are sympathetic to the cause, but I just can't get past that perhaps a few adult beverages are needed to bring the childishness of this so-called movement to light.

This ATI pilot would have no problem welcoming a properly vetted ABX pilot on board for a ride. Provided, that is, that there is some measure of decorum and professional demeanor. But I'm guessing anyone who would have trouble masking a lesser attitude wouldn't be looking for a ride from us anyway. And that's fine, too. The real problem is that one guy, with bad intent, who CAN mask such attitudes, yet wants a ride to get home from work to to "go fishing". Remember that the ATI pilots didn't start this.

My only comment : FAR 121.547
Also since you are ALPA please refer to No Pilot Left Behind as written by ALPA International Jumpseat committee.
I'll buy the first round.
Lastly: your VP , JV threw your MEC under the bus as stated by our VP and MEC. Call JV and ask him if he said this.

So to make sure I've got this right, you're saying he said she said. Got it. :D I wasn't in the room, and I'm guessing you weren't in the room either. I'd prefer that we let our reps resolve the issue. I'm quite familiar with NPLB, and hope we can all get back to that. At least we don't have to deal with gate agents, for the most part!

lol good point. First round on me

Its all F'ing stupid

I ride ABX back in forth and I have ABX guys in my city that ride us. Guy I see the most ex navy initials TD.. He's welcome on whatever plane car house etc I occupy. Actually that goes for about everyone over there. Admittedly ya'll are a bit more hardcore union wise than we are. All BS aside just pilots trying to get home to see loved ones or going to work to support them. Im not standing in the way of that.

I know the craziest MOFO's at ABX and I'm not worried about them going all FedEx on me.. I know what management/whoever has said and we are above that kinda BS.

I have to tell ya Dave you are so far down the wrong path on this one...

A. No one has said the MEC is the roadblock, they are at fault for not fixing the issue. (I'll admit there is a rumor they are part of the problem though).

B. Way before vetting of crewmembers, searches, patdowns, wanding, and CASS. Besides, if you really think someone is going to be a problem...don't take them! I don't care what airline they are with.

C. 1224 isn't pushing for a universal ban of ATI. We've been waiting for almost 2 months for you guys to let us back on. The result of ATI not letting us (or perhaps other carriers they have agreements with) on...well, they remain to be seen; it may very well end up with bans, etc.

For CTRCommand; I'm glad to hear that you ride us and us on you. I believe you are speaking more of past times since ABX can not even make a reservation/listing thru ATI Ops/Sched's. Right now we are turned down before even making an appearance at the flight desk and I'm certain you know that.

I remember.

What's your point?

Are you saying you don't want to jumpseat on FedEx?


`Cuz you don't have to ...






.

I\

Some one needs to "nut up" call JV on this. Are you guys really this fearful of the guy. Just ask him, at least we can narrow the liars down to: your VP, our VP, or your MEC. We are having a phone conference on this issue Monday with Z. Hopefully things have moved towards the positive. More to come.

A: Post 3 above says the MEC is the roadblock. But I see your point from a defensive position.

B: Also agreed, but every defense has a weakness. If someone wants to get around those defenses, especially someone on the "inside", they'll find a way. Do I feel that it's necessary here? No. But someone, could have been a crew member, could have been a mechanic that was on the receiving end of a conversation, could have been someone in Ops, apparently brought up the risk. When a risk is identified (justified or not) and dismissed, and then something happens related to that risk, all of the 20/20 hindsight investigators come out of the woodworks and conclude that the dismisser should have seen it coming. Again, I'm not defending the action, I'm just conceding that I understand the position taken by management.

C. Post 16 above seems to indicate that all IBT carriers, all ALPA carriers, SWA, AA, Virgin, and UPS are being contacted to ban us. Sorry if I overreacted in thinking that was universal. I was so far off base. :rolleyes:

As I said, I hope this is resolved. UNIVERSALLY, and in short order.

Neah I have been off for a while.

Last time I jump seated on you guys it's because I banged in sick in ILN. It was during the heat of all this BULL SH. IT

It was cold and I was running a fever, so bad in fact I was sweating my *** off. Your ops gave me BS trying to list I took cass paperwork to plane and your capt took a look at me and said don't worry your going home.

You also have a capt who lives in TN that saved Christmas for me, literally. I and LOTS OF others owe him more than words can explain.



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Talk about getting played by management..

Look guys if you wanna have some fun, tell little hitler and his penis that they are out of line on this jumpseat issue. Hell he viotated CASS by fraudently listing Scott T as a flying crew member. The Feds were informed but apparently they are as nutless as others.

If you want to hand something to the feds Id walk across the ramp and peak at 313's logbook. I assume you guys share a ramp still.

I have a difficult time believing the stories. If its a fact, that should make a fed perk up.

Shared MX in this regard. Both airlines thank you. :rolleyes:

Management has lifted the jumpseat restriction, but I haven't forgotten my friends being denied jumpseats prior to the strike so I will still reciprocate accordingly.

I hope you mean, that you will deny your jumpseat to the Captains that denied your friends? 99.9% of our pilots did NOT deny your friends. We need to stop this adversarial relationship between our pilot groups, the only one that benefits from the turmoil, is the management that is screwing both groups.

Who is to say they don't already know about it? ;)

In any event, it appears that it's finally properly-diagnosed and effectively-repaired. If we're going to be charitable, we could say that maint first exhausted the obvious stuff and/or had difficulty duplicating the problem on the ground. Once it became apparent that this was an unusual failure mode (and it is certainly debatable whether this could/should have been apparent sooner and/or taken more seriously sooner), they did remove the aircraft from service and thereafter devoted an appropriate amount of resources to an effective diagnosis and repair, including two expensive 5-ish hour flights over the Midwest and South.

Here's hoping that this is behind them and that the appropriate lessons have been learned.

It means I'll deny all ABX jumpseats until the ABX pilot group changes its malicious attitude towards us. It goes beyond the denied jumpseats (snide comments, having shuttle vans leave us behind, etc.). When you can act like professionals and also treat us like professionals then we can move on. This behavior originated on the ABX side and needs to be stopped there.

Four more months for me will be a year at ABX. I've rode the van and spoken to many ATI pilots. We've never left anyone behind and I fail to see how we could seeing as none of us are the ones driving the bus.

Not saying that you may not have experienced this behavior, but I have yet to witness it. Either way, I just don't see the need to be adversarial with each other. Both pilot groups are slaves to the same master. Being on the same page benefits all of us.

Now I don't know how true this is but it is said that there are some in the ATI group that would like for ABX to disappear and ATI take all the flying. If true, then yeah, your gonna get left behind here and there. In my opinion that would also need to stop.

The only way for things to get better is for both groups, no matter what was done or said in the past, to look past it and work together to make things better for everyone.

First:
I'd be willing to bet my next catered meal, that the vast majority of crewmembers at each company are decent, professionals, and that there are also a few PITA's at each company. To penilize the large number decent guys because the few PITA's are idiots does nothing to better our respective positions with regards to our morale crushing managements. We need to ignore the pains in the butts and work to repair offenses of the past, or we may all lose in the end.

...and second:
"This behavior originated on the ABX side....". I don't know what, if any, specifics you base this statement on, but I do have a specific that would contradict this, but since it would do nothing but potentially enflame an already tense relationship between company crews, I'll leave mine un-stated also. It doesn't matter who started it. If it was us, fine, I as an ABX crewmember, am reaching out in an attempt to repair things. And you...?

I am watching, and listening for any change of tone from the ABX side of the house. I've never said or done anything hostile to any ABX pilot and I'm not trying to start any s#%t, just not gonna tolerate it being brought into my cockpit. This stuff has been going on since the day ATSG bought us and I'm fed up with it!

I am glad to see the restriction of ABX pilots has been terminated. The j/s is not the place to determine the validity of arguments and positons, regardless of mutual or dissenting opinions. Most already know the best approach is to enjoy the view of someone else's office and be thankful for the ride.

l8fr8 has the option to deny access to anyone period end. You know the saying....'hate the game, not the player'. I don't think Bo would deny someone unless they had personally harmed him (or others in their group) wrongfully. That would be an individual issue and not a wholesale offering of the group. Regardless it's his choice and bumping just increases the space between groups.

If you have a problem with access at *any* airline, you should bring the situation up to the rep's at your Union. Let them handle it internally with the opposing union representative.