Omni Air Pilot Negotiations update
12-23-2017, 08:33 PM
#631
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,236
Originally Posted by FL450
Globe,
Unfortunately what you see here is a very small minority constantly posting, some which have multiple usernames. The very few that do post here don’t represent the entire 240 pilot group (that includes the FE’s still on the list). Dutch is a newer hire which we are fortunate to have on property but either has not been screwed by the current contract or is living under the bubble of Sentinel. Our elected negotiators are selfless yet smart individuals. One is borderline genius and his absence would be a blow to the entire negotiation efforts.
Some of those touting "let’s see language" are the same ones that wanted to see a TA when the company offered a 30% pay raise with everything current book value. Over the past 2 years things have drastically changed since the first of now 9 take it or leave it offers. However, just because things have drastically improved doesn’t mean there aren’t grey areas as wide as the Grand Canyon. With regard to negotiators answering questions, personally I’ve never had a negotiator not answer my question without breaking an NDA.
SS, gave a speech on the state of negotiations to a group of us a year ago and was forthcoming on where the union stood and the company. Recently, I spoke with another negotiating team member during a serious of flights and he was forthcoming with a very small number of issues holding back a TA and the companies wording on certain issues such as "Direct Domestic Travel". I’m not discrediting any of my colleagues above but most of the post are emotionally charged. I’ve been ALPA and Teamsters; as "Heavydriver" mentioned same tactics different companies.
JetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit are all in the same boat as Omni pilots but what is different is the solidarity shown by those groups vs ours. Thus to answer your question, take these forums with a truck load of salt and when an agreement that represents the best efforts possible by the Negotiations Committee there will be a TA.
Also, most of the "show me the TA now crew" had the ability to volunteer for the NC but didn’t. Again... take the opinions with a grain of salt.
Unfortunately what you see here is a very small minority constantly posting, some which have multiple usernames. The very few that do post here don’t represent the entire 240 pilot group (that includes the FE’s still on the list). Dutch is a newer hire which we are fortunate to have on property but either has not been screwed by the current contract or is living under the bubble of Sentinel. Our elected negotiators are selfless yet smart individuals. One is borderline genius and his absence would be a blow to the entire negotiation efforts.
Some of those touting "let’s see language" are the same ones that wanted to see a TA when the company offered a 30% pay raise with everything current book value. Over the past 2 years things have drastically changed since the first of now 9 take it or leave it offers. However, just because things have drastically improved doesn’t mean there aren’t grey areas as wide as the Grand Canyon. With regard to negotiators answering questions, personally I’ve never had a negotiator not answer my question without breaking an NDA.
SS, gave a speech on the state of negotiations to a group of us a year ago and was forthcoming on where the union stood and the company. Recently, I spoke with another negotiating team member during a serious of flights and he was forthcoming with a very small number of issues holding back a TA and the companies wording on certain issues such as "Direct Domestic Travel". I’m not discrediting any of my colleagues above but most of the post are emotionally charged. I’ve been ALPA and Teamsters; as "Heavydriver" mentioned same tactics different companies.
JetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit are all in the same boat as Omni pilots but what is different is the solidarity shown by those groups vs ours. Thus to answer your question, take these forums with a truck load of salt and when an agreement that represents the best efforts possible by the Negotiations Committee there will be a TA.
Also, most of the "show me the TA now crew" had the ability to volunteer for the NC but didn’t. Again... take the opinions with a grain of salt.
12-24-2017, 09:48 AM
#632
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 29
I find it funny that most pilots purport to believe in democracy and free market capitalism but you talk to them about their "union" and they are more socialist that Nancy Pelosi.
This has a simple ending. Let the pilots decide.
Frank Paden
This has a simple ending. Let the pilots decide.
Frank Paden
12-24-2017, 11:02 AM
#633
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: 777 all
Posts: 64
Remember you’re debating some here who have a vastly different view the world, human nature, and the relationship between employer/employee. That group may consider this a larger movement or cause. to the extent they have even thought much about it.
Labor unions inherently embrace collectivist, coercive, and leftist strategies.
It would be refreshing for those that have this position to simply admit this. The hypocrisy is frustrating. Far too many wrap themselves with standardized slogans, evade basic questions or comments, and repeatedly tell us it’s for our own good not to have a vote.
I’ll repeat what has been said many times here. No one is telling people how to vote, just let us see the offer and be allowed to decide for ourselves. I don’t want to control or restrict anyone’s right to make their own choices. Its clear that some due not embrace this notion.
Labor unions inherently embrace collectivist, coercive, and leftist strategies.
It would be refreshing for those that have this position to simply admit this. The hypocrisy is frustrating. Far too many wrap themselves with standardized slogans, evade basic questions or comments, and repeatedly tell us it’s for our own good not to have a vote.
I’ll repeat what has been said many times here. No one is telling people how to vote, just let us see the offer and be allowed to decide for ourselves. I don’t want to control or restrict anyone’s right to make their own choices. Its clear that some due not embrace this notion.
12-24-2017, 11:14 AM
#634
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
With your excellent post, my faith is restored in the Omni pilot group...thank you. After following this thread for a while, I was getting a little worried. Now I understand that I am just reading the opinions of the vocal minority...thank God!
Now that we’ve covered nonsensical extraneous material, let’s concentrate on the elephant in the room.
The Omni pilots are being prevented by someone from seeing, let alone voting, on a proposal that by multiple accounts, would pass overwhelmingly. 450 small vocal minority not withstanding.
So Knoxville appreciate your new found faith, but let’s get on with program.
Respectfully
12-24-2017, 02:44 PM
#635
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Posts: 611
Originally Posted by Dutch80
Johny you don’t know how happy I am that your faith in the Omni Pilot Group is restored. I’m also eternally grateful to FL450 for making that possible.
Now that we’ve covered nonsensical extraneous material, let’s concentrate on the elephant in the room.
The Omni pilots are being prevented by someone from seeing, let alone voting, on a proposal that by multiple accounts, would pass overwhelmingly. 450 small vocal minority not withstanding.
So Knoxville appreciate your new found faith, but let’s get on with program.
Respectfully
Now that we’ve covered nonsensical extraneous material, let’s concentrate on the elephant in the room.
The Omni pilots are being prevented by someone from seeing, let alone voting, on a proposal that by multiple accounts, would pass overwhelmingly. 450 small vocal minority not withstanding.
So Knoxville appreciate your new found faith, but let’s get on with program.
Respectfully
I wonder how many Eastern Scabs work for Omni and frequent this web board? FL450, care to give any more insight to the strange, yet entertaining world that is Omni?
Respectfully
12-24-2017, 03:27 PM
#636
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: 777 all
Posts: 64
Ah yes, Another professional post from Jonny.
So why are we not allowed to see or vote on the latest proposal?
Best wishes.
So why are we not allowed to see or vote on the latest proposal?
Best wishes.
12-24-2017, 03:31 PM
#637
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by JonnyKnoxville
Too funny! Either management or the mindset of a simpleton that doesn't understand the basics of negotiations, which will most certainly result in a lower contract for you and your fellow pilots...either way, pathetic.
I wonder how many Eastern Scabs work for Omni and frequent this web board? FL450, care to give any more insight to the strange, yet entertaining world that is Omni?
Respectfully
I wonder how many Eastern Scabs work for Omni and frequent this web board? FL450, care to give any more insight to the strange, yet entertaining world that is Omni?
Respectfully
Let’s see. You can’t argue on the merits, have nothing remotely intelligent to contribute, nothing barely
thought provoking worthy of discussion, your little panties get bunched up and all you can do is throw the “management scab” card.
And on top of all you’re angry.
Well at least you have faith or something...Must be sad to be you brother.
Respectfully
12-25-2017, 12:42 AM
#638
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 224
Originally Posted by Dutch80
Fair enough Globe. What if don’t trust either party ?
Why am I not permitted see what’s in writing now MYSELF , so I can make MY OWN decision ?
Is that too much to ask ?
Why am I not permitted see what’s in writing now MYSELF , so I can make MY OWN decision ?
Is that too much to ask ?
Like I said before, there are many reasons why a ExCo and NC wouldn't want to put something out for a vote.
If you don't trust them, have them recalled. If you do trust them, let them do their job. Any ExCo and/or NC that sends something out for a vote that doesn't pass or fail by a big number has failed to do their job.
12-25-2017, 08:15 AM
#639
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 67
We will find out which side is lying. This will explain a lot about this whole process.....I hope every member remembers this.
12-25-2017, 09:28 AM
#640
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by FL450
Globe,
Unfortunately what you see here is a very small minority constantly posting, some which have multiple usernames. The very few that do post here don’t represent the entire 240 pilot group (that includes the FE’s still on the list). Dutch is a newer hire which we are fortunate to have on property but either has not been screwed by the current contract or is living under the bubble of Sentinel. Our elected negotiators are selfless yet smart individuals. One is borderline genius and his absence would be a blow to the entire negotiation efforts.
Some of those touting "let’s see language" are the same ones that wanted to see a TA when the company offered a 30% pay raise with everything current book value. Over the past 2 years things have drastically changed since the first of now 9 take it or leave it offers. However, just because things have drastically improved doesn’t mean there aren’t grey areas as wide as the Grand Canyon. With regard to negotiators answering questions, personally I’ve never had a negotiator not answer my question without breaking an NDA.
SS, gave a speech on the state of negotiations to a group of us a year ago and was forthcoming on where the union stood and the company. Recently, I spoke with another negotiating team member during a serious of flights and he was forthcoming with a very small number of issues holding back a TA and the companies wording on certain issues such as "Direct Domestic Travel". I’m not discrediting any of my colleagues above but most of the post are emotionally charged. I’ve been ALPA and Teamsters; as "Heavydriver" mentioned same tactics different companies.
JetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit are all in the same boat as Omni pilots but what is different is the solidarity shown by those groups vs ours. Thus to answer your question, take these forums with a truck load of salt and when an agreement that represents the best efforts possible by the Negotiations Committee there will be a TA.
Also, most of the "show me the TA now crew" had the ability to volunteer for the NC but didn’t. Again... take the opinions with a grain of salt.
Unfortunately what you see here is a very small minority constantly posting, some which have multiple usernames. The very few that do post here don’t represent the entire 240 pilot group (that includes the FE’s still on the list). Dutch is a newer hire which we are fortunate to have on property but either has not been screwed by the current contract or is living under the bubble of Sentinel. Our elected negotiators are selfless yet smart individuals. One is borderline genius and his absence would be a blow to the entire negotiation efforts.
Some of those touting "let’s see language" are the same ones that wanted to see a TA when the company offered a 30% pay raise with everything current book value. Over the past 2 years things have drastically changed since the first of now 9 take it or leave it offers. However, just because things have drastically improved doesn’t mean there aren’t grey areas as wide as the Grand Canyon. With regard to negotiators answering questions, personally I’ve never had a negotiator not answer my question without breaking an NDA.
SS, gave a speech on the state of negotiations to a group of us a year ago and was forthcoming on where the union stood and the company. Recently, I spoke with another negotiating team member during a serious of flights and he was forthcoming with a very small number of issues holding back a TA and the companies wording on certain issues such as "Direct Domestic Travel". I’m not discrediting any of my colleagues above but most of the post are emotionally charged. I’ve been ALPA and Teamsters; as "Heavydriver" mentioned same tactics different companies.
JetBlue, Frontier, and Spirit are all in the same boat as Omni pilots but what is different is the solidarity shown by those groups vs ours. Thus to answer your question, take these forums with a truck load of salt and when an agreement that represents the best efforts possible by the Negotiations Committee there will be a TA.
Also, most of the "show me the TA now crew" had the ability to volunteer for the NC but didn’t. Again... take the opinions with a grain of salt.
I'm not going to call you a liar, but this is full of..... inaccuracies.
Let's take it point by point:
A vocal minority with multiple screen names?
Really? Can you name even one? Prove it! While I have seen ZERO evidence of that claim, i have seen multiple commentators who don't even work at our company.
if you have no evidence of this, you should not make such a claim.
A minority? that is 100% pure opinion, and you know it!
you quote the size of the pilot group to include the FEs that you know full well are never coming back and will not vote.
Why?
Could it be to try and give the appearance that the "contract now" crowd is smaller? That's disingenuous at best, besides, if they did get a chance to vote and could come back to work, I bet you 100% of them would say yes to this contract.
By my calculations, the number of current pilots is more like 190. I can tell you that all of the Squirrel crowd is in the "contract now" crowd vs the moving goal post, appease 1224 crowd. I'm told the vast majority of vacations Hawaii is also in the "contract now" crowd.
That leaves Gen Pop. it has been one year since I flew our everyday stuff, but the majority of people that I have talked to are more in the "contract now" crowd. But, it is also true that a friend of mine who is a new pilot with us was out on the road on an overnight in SNN and he said it was 50/50 maybe even 60/40 "wait for more"
what I am saying is, if you take all of squirrel, most of VH and even 40% of gen pop, I believe this would be a majority of the pilot group. But, even if I am wrong, it sure as hell is not a vocal minority fictitiously trying to represent themselves.
You say the "few that post here do not represent the entire group". News flash, nor do you.
Next, "screwed by this contract or (and this is my favorite) live under the BUBBLE of Sentinel".
I'm just curious 450, have you ever been on the program?
Every Sentinel pilot has flown gen pop and have a 100% understanding of the challenges it represents. Sentinel pilots face all of the same challenges with the possible exception of the fact that we know which hotels were going to be in.
all of the other contract issues like pay, leave, 401K, travel, etc ARE EXACTLY THE SAME.
trying to suggest that we are in a bubble, or that our opinions don't count, is simply being dismissive or a union tactic to silence those who disagree with you.
it is transparent and it won't work.
Next, "some of the let's see the language crowd are the same ones who wanted to vote when it was only a 30% raise"
Absolutely true. But, so what? SOME of that crowd switched positions after the Kalitta contract match (including me). the point is, it doesn't matter when each individual came to the conclusion that the existing offer was good enough, it only matters where we are now.
many of the people who agree with you and post here constantly make the accusation that the company refuses to negotiate, right?
well, how can that be true if by your own admission we have had nine upgrades to the "take it or leave it" offers?
all of this emotional talk about "getting screwed by the contract" or "management is the devil" is sophomorish and irrelevant.
it is really quite simple, we have an existing contract .... we have an offer which is the product of the Union requesting and the company acquiescing too many of their demands. THAT IS NEGOTIATING!
Next, "I've never had a negotiator not respond to me".
well I certainly can't comment on that, if that has been your experience then good for you.
Let me tell you my experience. I wrote, Seale, Wainscott and 2 of the 1224 guys.
ZERO RESPONSE.
maybe they're good at responding if you agree with them, who knows.
ALPA vs Teamsters.
I understand that you have been represented by both and if you find them equal, then I will respect your opinion on that.
My experience however, has been quite different.
I have been told that we recently had elections. I have spoke with many people who got no information on this, no balloting, no who's running...
nothing! I spent 17 years in an ALPA carrier and I assure you that every election was "big news" and while not everyone participated in the vote, there wasn't a single person who didn't know it was election season, or know who was running for which offices.
I've been told that they had an election but that no one ran and so the Ex board just picked a new leader.
let me be clear, I'm not saying that's what happened, simply what I was told. The more important point is that I have no idea what the truth is, I have no idea if there wasn't election and no one ran, I have no idea if someone was appointed. And, yes- my contact info is up to date- i get email updates on negotiations.
This, not unlike the way they are handling the negotiation seems to be Cloak and Dagger, intentionally vague and designed to keep the group in the dark.
I could be wrong, this is only my opinion, but I know it is one shared by some of our Pilots.
Finally, on a personal note your last point just flat ****es me off.
"pilots could have volunteered for the NC".
the pro-union crowd always whips out this snippy, accusatory comment.
you are missing the fundamental point of representation. We all pay dues. that is where Our obligation ends.
you notice I said obligation, that is not to say that people cannot volunteer for other things to make their job better, that is not to say that those who do volunteer did not deserve accolades.
But, this attitude of if you didn't volunteer you should just shut up is b*******. elected representatives and volunteers have a responsibility to exercise the will of their constituency.
Here's the simple fact.
the majority of our pilot group wasn't even employed here the last time they did a survey to see what the pilot group wants.
The majority of our pilot group was not here to volunteer for the negotiating committee when it was inaugurated.
How can our elected representatives and the volunteers exercise the will of the pilot group when they're not even sure what it is?
in my previous experience with ALPA, it was not uncommon to have more than one survey throughout the course of a contract negotiation.
I dare say if the Union were to produce a copy of the "wish list" of the pilot group (when they did take a survey) the current contract offer would meet or exceed those expectations.
in fact, I know this is true because I flew with one of the guys on the negotiating committee and since I was not here at the time the survey was taken, he explain to me the results of the survey.
One big difference between the "now" crowd and the "wait"crowd is the now crowd never tells anyone else how to vote. We are simply looking for the right for a little self-determination.
to be given the right to evaluate the potential gains versus the potential losses, to know what the facts are and to make a decision for ourselves.
can you say the same for your crowd?
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