Omni Air Pilot Negotiations update
01-30-2018, 08:05 AM
#841
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
Dear Sirs,
Yesterday, I participated in the "call in" to hear the update on the status of negotiations. After about 30 minutes, I just hung up- not in anger but in sadness and frustration.
A few things are clear. First, we are not getting a contract anytime soon. In fact, it would appear that you are planning to take us down a path which GUARANTEES we will not have a TA in the Spring, Summer or even maybe this year.
Next, that despite several pilots imploring you, dare I say begging you, for detailed information on where we stand, what items remain, what the company has offered and how far apart we remain, you (the collective you) insist on the 1224 hazy, vague non answer, answer.
This just won't stand. These are fair questions. You are either elected Reps or appointees acting on their behalf, and have an obligation to keep us informed.
When the first caller asked, in no uncertain terms, "what items remain?" and the answer was mentioning a few items and then having it drug out that it is "10-12 items" it was disappointing, but that's fine. It is what it is. We're pilots- tell us what's wrong so we can deal with each item and keep the greasy side down.
But, when asked what those other items were, responding that "you left your notes at home" for an information call scheduled a week in advance, is simply unacceptable.
If that sounds unappreciative or as if I, and others do not recognize the enormous sacrifice of your personal time, I apologize. We do. We are thankful for it. But, this is our livelihoods and our future so straight talk is required.
Right about now, some hard core Union guy (who most likely doesn't even work for us) is firing up his keyboard to say "your negotiating commitee speaks for you" or some other tired union bumper sticker slogan.
And that brings me to my final point, ABSOLUTE honesty and integrity.
By all acounts, our NC call leader is a good and honorable man. Experienced OAI pilot, a U.S. Veteran, and all around good guy.
But, the constant drumbeat of "management is lying" is unproductive, unprofessional and most of all, doesn't always pass the smell test.
I'll give you an example; it was repeated, again, that during the last negotiation that the "company just got up and walked out of the negotiations" and then Crippen says " this isn't true because I informed them at the beginning that I had to leave but left my team in place to continue negotiations". The pilots are left with 2 stories and are forced to pick who is being honest.
If the argument is that they weren't real negotiations without Crippen there, than say THAT. Don't give any wiggle room to management to sew a seed of doubt.
Here's another example. Crippen accused the Union of "moving the goal post" and as expected, the Union called him a liar. But, in the call yesterday, nearly in the same breath, you said "we are constantly looking at contracts of other carriers as they happen and are adjusting our demands accordingly". (I'm paraphrasing my notes of the call)
Guys, that is the very definition of "moving the goal post"!
The worst part is, that is a fair, legitimate argument to make!! Don't just call our management liars, PERSUADE the pilot group why this is a reasonable course of action. If management doesn't want to negotiate while the industry continues to compensate an ever shrinking talent pool with better and more lucrative contracts, then they do so at their own peril.
Some have said (again, mostly people who do not work here) that the division in our pilot group is the product of management propaganda.
There maybe some truth to that but I know that in my case and many of the people I have spoken with, it is the lack of communication and information that has many of us concerned that our elected representatives are dividing their allegiance between the hopes of the pilot groups and the demands of the Union.
I implore both the company and the union to not go down this path. No one wins.
Yesterday, I participated in the "call in" to hear the update on the status of negotiations. After about 30 minutes, I just hung up- not in anger but in sadness and frustration.
A few things are clear. First, we are not getting a contract anytime soon. In fact, it would appear that you are planning to take us down a path which GUARANTEES we will not have a TA in the Spring, Summer or even maybe this year.
Next, that despite several pilots imploring you, dare I say begging you, for detailed information on where we stand, what items remain, what the company has offered and how far apart we remain, you (the collective you) insist on the 1224 hazy, vague non answer, answer.
This just won't stand. These are fair questions. You are either elected Reps or appointees acting on their behalf, and have an obligation to keep us informed.
When the first caller asked, in no uncertain terms, "what items remain?" and the answer was mentioning a few items and then having it drug out that it is "10-12 items" it was disappointing, but that's fine. It is what it is. We're pilots- tell us what's wrong so we can deal with each item and keep the greasy side down.
But, when asked what those other items were, responding that "you left your notes at home" for an information call scheduled a week in advance, is simply unacceptable.
If that sounds unappreciative or as if I, and others do not recognize the enormous sacrifice of your personal time, I apologize. We do. We are thankful for it. But, this is our livelihoods and our future so straight talk is required.
Right about now, some hard core Union guy (who most likely doesn't even work for us) is firing up his keyboard to say "your negotiating commitee speaks for you" or some other tired union bumper sticker slogan.
And that brings me to my final point, ABSOLUTE honesty and integrity.
By all acounts, our NC call leader is a good and honorable man. Experienced OAI pilot, a U.S. Veteran, and all around good guy.
But, the constant drumbeat of "management is lying" is unproductive, unprofessional and most of all, doesn't always pass the smell test.
I'll give you an example; it was repeated, again, that during the last negotiation that the "company just got up and walked out of the negotiations" and then Crippen says " this isn't true because I informed them at the beginning that I had to leave but left my team in place to continue negotiations". The pilots are left with 2 stories and are forced to pick who is being honest.
If the argument is that they weren't real negotiations without Crippen there, than say THAT. Don't give any wiggle room to management to sew a seed of doubt.
Here's another example. Crippen accused the Union of "moving the goal post" and as expected, the Union called him a liar. But, in the call yesterday, nearly in the same breath, you said "we are constantly looking at contracts of other carriers as they happen and are adjusting our demands accordingly". (I'm paraphrasing my notes of the call)
Guys, that is the very definition of "moving the goal post"!
The worst part is, that is a fair, legitimate argument to make!! Don't just call our management liars, PERSUADE the pilot group why this is a reasonable course of action. If management doesn't want to negotiate while the industry continues to compensate an ever shrinking talent pool with better and more lucrative contracts, then they do so at their own peril.
Some have said (again, mostly people who do not work here) that the division in our pilot group is the product of management propaganda.
There maybe some truth to that but I know that in my case and many of the people I have spoken with, it is the lack of communication and information that has many of us concerned that our elected representatives are dividing their allegiance between the hopes of the pilot groups and the demands of the Union.
I implore both the company and the union to not go down this path. No one wins.
01-30-2018, 08:48 AM
#842
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 69
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
Dear Sirs,
Yesterday, I participated in the "call in" to hear the update on the status of negotiations. After about 30 minutes, I just hung up- not in anger but in sadness and frustration.
A few things are clear. First, we are not getting a contract anytime soon. In fact, it would appear that you are planning to take us down a path which GUARANTEES we will not have a TA in the Spring, Summer or even maybe this year.
Next, that despite several pilots imploring you, dare I say begging you, for detailed information on where we stand, what items remain, what the company has offered and how far apart we remain, you (the collective you) insist on the 1224 hazy, vague non answer, answer.
This just won't stand. These are fair questions. You are either elected Reps or appointees acting on their behalf, and have an obligation to keep us informed.
When the first caller asked, in no uncertain terms, "what items remain?" and the answer was mentioning a few items and then having it drug out that it is "10-12 items" it was disappointing, but that's fine. It is what it is. We're pilots- tell us what's wrong so we can deal with each item and keep the greasy side down.
But, when asked what those other items were, responding that "you left your notes at home" for an information call scheduled a week in advance, is simply unacceptable.
If that sounds unappreciative or as if I, and others do not recognize the enormous sacrifice of your personal time, I apologize. We do. We are thankful for it. But, this is our livelihoods and our future so straight talk is required.
Right about now, some hard core Union guy (who most likely doesn't even work for us) is firing up his keyboard to say "your negotiating commitee speaks for you" or some other tired union bumper sticker slogan.
And that brings me to my final point, ABSOLUTE honesty and integrity.
By all acounts, our NC call leader is a good and honorable man. Experienced OAI pilot, a U.S. Veteran, and all around good guy.
But, the constant drumbeat of "management is lying" is unproductive, unprofessional and most of all, doesn't always pass the smell test.
I'll give you an example; it was repeated, again, that during the last negotiation that the "company just got up and walked out of the negotiations" and then Crippen says " this isn't true because I informed them at the beginning that I had to leave but left my team in place to continue negotiations". The pilots are left with 2 stories and are forced to pick who is being honest.
If the argument is that they weren't real negotiations without Crippen there, than say THAT. Don't give any wiggle room to management to sew a seed of doubt.
Here's another example. Crippen accused the Union of "moving the goal post" and as expected, the Union called him a liar. But, in the call yesterday, nearly in the same breath, you said "we are constantly looking at contracts of other carriers as they happen and are adjusting our demands accordingly". (I'm paraphrasing my notes of the call)
Guys, that is the very definition of "moving the goal post"!
The worst part is, that is a fair, legitimate argument to make!! Don't just call our management liars, PERSUADE the pilot group why this is a reasonable course of action. If management doesn't want to negotiate while the industry continues to compensate an ever shrinking talent pool with better and more lucrative contracts, then they do so at their own peril.
Some have said (again, mostly people who do not work here) that the division in our pilot group is the product of management propaganda.
There maybe some truth to that but I know that in my case and many of the people I have spoken with, it is the lack of communication and information that has many of us concerned that our elected representatives are dividing their allegiance between the hopes of the pilot groups and the demands of the Union.
I implore both the company and the union to not go down this path. No one wins.
Yesterday, I participated in the "call in" to hear the update on the status of negotiations. After about 30 minutes, I just hung up- not in anger but in sadness and frustration.
A few things are clear. First, we are not getting a contract anytime soon. In fact, it would appear that you are planning to take us down a path which GUARANTEES we will not have a TA in the Spring, Summer or even maybe this year.
Next, that despite several pilots imploring you, dare I say begging you, for detailed information on where we stand, what items remain, what the company has offered and how far apart we remain, you (the collective you) insist on the 1224 hazy, vague non answer, answer.
This just won't stand. These are fair questions. You are either elected Reps or appointees acting on their behalf, and have an obligation to keep us informed.
When the first caller asked, in no uncertain terms, "what items remain?" and the answer was mentioning a few items and then having it drug out that it is "10-12 items" it was disappointing, but that's fine. It is what it is. We're pilots- tell us what's wrong so we can deal with each item and keep the greasy side down.
But, when asked what those other items were, responding that "you left your notes at home" for an information call scheduled a week in advance, is simply unacceptable.
If that sounds unappreciative or as if I, and others do not recognize the enormous sacrifice of your personal time, I apologize. We do. We are thankful for it. But, this is our livelihoods and our future so straight talk is required.
Right about now, some hard core Union guy (who most likely doesn't even work for us) is firing up his keyboard to say "your negotiating commitee speaks for you" or some other tired union bumper sticker slogan.
And that brings me to my final point, ABSOLUTE honesty and integrity.
By all acounts, our NC call leader is a good and honorable man. Experienced OAI pilot, a U.S. Veteran, and all around good guy.
But, the constant drumbeat of "management is lying" is unproductive, unprofessional and most of all, doesn't always pass the smell test.
I'll give you an example; it was repeated, again, that during the last negotiation that the "company just got up and walked out of the negotiations" and then Crippen says " this isn't true because I informed them at the beginning that I had to leave but left my team in place to continue negotiations". The pilots are left with 2 stories and are forced to pick who is being honest.
If the argument is that they weren't real negotiations without Crippen there, than say THAT. Don't give any wiggle room to management to sew a seed of doubt.
Here's another example. Crippen accused the Union of "moving the goal post" and as expected, the Union called him a liar. But, in the call yesterday, nearly in the same breath, you said "we are constantly looking at contracts of other carriers as they happen and are adjusting our demands accordingly". (I'm paraphrasing my notes of the call)
Guys, that is the very definition of "moving the goal post"!
The worst part is, that is a fair, legitimate argument to make!! Don't just call our management liars, PERSUADE the pilot group why this is a reasonable course of action. If management doesn't want to negotiate while the industry continues to compensate an ever shrinking talent pool with better and more lucrative contracts, then they do so at their own peril.
Some have said (again, mostly people who do not work here) that the division in our pilot group is the product of management propaganda.
There maybe some truth to that but I know that in my case and many of the people I have spoken with, it is the lack of communication and information that has many of us concerned that our elected representatives are dividing their allegiance between the hopes of the pilot groups and the demands of the Union.
I implore both the company and the union to not go down this path. No one wins.
Because I’m nowhere near as eloquent as you, I’ll offer my view of current state of affairs in a more condensed form.
What we have here is a CHARADE. It has been so for quite sometime. This “negotiations” have become completely divorced from anything pertaining to the Omni pilots.
This CHARADE is written, produced and directed by a group with multiple objectives and agendas, none of which remotely includes the welfare of the Omni Pilots. I think we all know that, weather we want to admit it or not. Let’s be honest.
What is now becoming clearer to me is that some within our own group are complicit puppets in this CHARADE.
And that is disappointing, dishonest and shameful.
01-30-2018, 11:48 AM
#843
Jumpseat driver
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: any available seat
Posts: 70
Originally Posted by Dutch80
Excellent post Stick. Says it all.
Because I’m nowhere near as eloquent as you, I’ll offer my view of current state of affairs in a more condensed form.
What we have here is a CHARADE. It has been so for quite sometime. This “negotiations” have become completely divorced from anything pertaining to the Omni pilots.
This CHARADE is written, produced and directed by a group with multiple objectives and agendas, none of which remotely includes the welfare of the Omni Pilots. I think we all know that, weather we want to admit it or not. Let’s be honest.
What is now becoming clearer to me is that some within our own group are complicit puppets in this CHARADE.
And that is disappointing, dishonest and shameful.
Because I’m nowhere near as eloquent as you, I’ll offer my view of current state of affairs in a more condensed form.
What we have here is a CHARADE. It has been so for quite sometime. This “negotiations” have become completely divorced from anything pertaining to the Omni pilots.
This CHARADE is written, produced and directed by a group with multiple objectives and agendas, none of which remotely includes the welfare of the Omni Pilots. I think we all know that, weather we want to admit it or not. Let’s be honest.
What is now becoming clearer to me is that some within our own group are complicit puppets in this CHARADE.
And that is disappointing, dishonest and shameful.
01-30-2018, 12:07 PM
#844
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
So you guys are saying that your fellow pilots that have been elected/appointed to represent you at the negotiating table are now cowardly and or dishonest?
That is about as bad as it gets.
What are the alternatives other than to decertify the Teamsters? Or is a decertify effort underway?
Has anybody sought to sue the union for failing to adequately execute their fiduciary responsibility.
After all, they get paid to represent you. Therefore, they have to act in your best interest.
That is about as bad as it gets.
What are the alternatives other than to decertify the Teamsters? Or is a decertify effort underway?
Has anybody sought to sue the union for failing to adequately execute their fiduciary responsibility.
After all, they get paid to represent you. Therefore, they have to act in your best interest.
01-30-2018, 03:48 PM
#845
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: Part 121, 135 & Military background
Posts: 379
Originally Posted by CargoPirate
So you guys are saying that your fellow pilots that have been elected/appointed to represent you at the negotiating table are now cowardly and or dishonest?
That is about as bad as it gets.
What are the alternatives other than to decertify the Teamsters? Or is a decertify effort underway?
Has anybody sought to sue the union for failing to adequately execute their fiduciary responsibility.
After all, they get paid to represent you. Therefore, they have to act in your best interest.
That is about as bad as it gets.
What are the alternatives other than to decertify the Teamsters? Or is a decertify effort underway?
Has anybody sought to sue the union for failing to adequately execute their fiduciary responsibility.
After all, they get paid to represent you. Therefore, they have to act in your best interest.
I did not, am not saying cowardly nor dishonest.
Please do not rephrase people's comments that will only increase the divisiveness that we are experiencing.
The concern (not accusation) is that there is at the very least, a Teamsters National pressure being applied for us to "further the industry". That is an awfully large burden for 195 Pilots to bear.
I for one, think neither party is truly lying. It SEEMS more along the lines of spin. Sorta like when my dating profile says "athletic".
The real concern is that while the word "liar" is getting thrown around haphazardly, there is no negotiating;
The company blames the Union (moving goal post) vs the Union blaming the company ( ultimatums).
Both are true.
The problem is, the union has decided to issue their own ultimatum. They provided management with a contractual language offer (based on "nothing new" demands) with a "sign it by Friday or else" ultimatum.
We all know, that ain't gonna happen.
So the "path" we are headed down has words like "strike vote", "Self-help", and of coursed "released".
If you are not sure what those things mean, do a little research- they are the bricks in the road that end in a strike.
But, guess what? We will NEVER be released and our management is not stupid- they know this.
There is no way that the NMB is going to release the principal carrier of the US Military.
We will spend months going down this road with no result- and the company will be laughing all the way to the bank.
01-30-2018, 06:25 PM
#846
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by stickwiggler
NO!
I did not, am not saying cowardly nor dishonest.
Please do not rephrase people's comments that will only increase the divisiveness that we are experiencing.
The concern (not accusation) is that there is at the very least, a Teamsters National pressure being applied for us to "further the industry". That is an awfully large burden for 195 Pilots to bear.
I for one, think neither party is truly lying. It SEEMS more along the lines of spin. Sorta like when my dating profile says "athletic".
The real concern is that while the word "liar" is getting thrown around haphazardly, there is no negotiating;
The company blames the Union (moving goal post) vs the Union blaming the company ( ultimatums).
Both are true.
The problem is, the union has decided to issue their own ultimatum. They provided management with a contractual language offer (based on "nothing new" demands) with a "sign it by Friday or else" ultimatum.
We all know, that ain't gonna happen.
So the "path" we are headed down has words like "strike vote", "Self-help", and of coursed "released".
If you are not sure what those things mean, do a little research- they are the bricks in the road that end in a strike.
But, guess what? We will NEVER be released and our management is not stupid- they know this.
There is no way that the NMB is going to release the principal carrier of the US Military.
We will spend months going down this road with no result- and the company will be laughing all the way to the bank.
I did not, am not saying cowardly nor dishonest.
Please do not rephrase people's comments that will only increase the divisiveness that we are experiencing.
The concern (not accusation) is that there is at the very least, a Teamsters National pressure being applied for us to "further the industry". That is an awfully large burden for 195 Pilots to bear.
I for one, think neither party is truly lying. It SEEMS more along the lines of spin. Sorta like when my dating profile says "athletic".
The real concern is that while the word "liar" is getting thrown around haphazardly, there is no negotiating;
The company blames the Union (moving goal post) vs the Union blaming the company ( ultimatums).
Both are true.
The problem is, the union has decided to issue their own ultimatum. They provided management with a contractual language offer (based on "nothing new" demands) with a "sign it by Friday or else" ultimatum.
We all know, that ain't gonna happen.
So the "path" we are headed down has words like "strike vote", "Self-help", and of coursed "released".
If you are not sure what those things mean, do a little research- they are the bricks in the road that end in a strike.
But, guess what? We will NEVER be released and our management is not stupid- they know this.
There is no way that the NMB is going to release the principal carrier of the US Military.
We will spend months going down this road with no result- and the company will be laughing all the way to the bank.
I like that guy Franks post about insanity. Why would anyone stick with a union that can't or won't do what is necessary to get you the contract that is best for you. To stay with them is INSANE. Are you just supposed to keep paying dues for nothing?
Also, from reading these posts it seems like Omni is totally special and unique in the flying they do. How could any national union that is controlled by larger carriers doing a different kind of flying adequately cover the needs of this pilot group.
You guys should have your own union that takes care of you and only you.
01-31-2018, 09:42 AM
#847
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,128
Interesting. The new jobs advertisements from Omni are advertising $113 per hour and 62 hour guarantee for new FO's.... then when you read way down into the job posting it says the current pay is $70 for 60 hrs credit.
looks like they expect it to pass.
What are your schedules like?
looks like they expect it to pass.
What are your schedules like?
01-31-2018, 12:50 PM
#848
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 73
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Interesting. The new jobs advertisements from Omni are advertising $113 per hour and 62 hour guarantee for new FO's.... then when you read way down into the job posting it says the current pay is $70 for 60 hrs credit.
looks like they expect it to pass.
What are your schedules like?
looks like they expect it to pass.
What are your schedules like?
As for schedules, I like them. There are known flying lines but they generally go senior so you basically bid for the days off each month (or two months for the few 2 month lines available). Some months they will use you all of your available days, sending you to all corners of the globe (yes I like the wrongness of that saying), and other months you spend a lot of time at home. Admittedly that doesn’t happen so much now due to our low pilot numbers.
Hope that helps.
01-31-2018, 02:05 PM
#849
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2013
Posts: 198
Originally Posted by jmprdmpr
Yeah. We actually had a guy get through training and when on OE was asked what his pay rate was. He seriously thought that he was on $113 after being here for probably two months. I don’t think the company is making any efforts to educate them on the realities.
How do you negotiate and/or trust management like that? Of course, how do you trust 1224 if half of what you guys say is true?
Sounds like Omni management is openly misleading recruits with false advertising and then letting the lies fester through training.
01-31-2018, 05:38 PM
#850
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 279
FWIW, the ads I could find trumpeted the proposed pay rates, but labelled them as such. If the guy didn't directly ask what he was getting paid, he's either willfully ignorant or independently wealthy.
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