Ditto, I've bid 60-25% on FO side since ADTG went into effect, over 6 months I've lost 13 days off and $1678 that I would of had if we had the 4 hour min and PBS credit that we agreed to in new contract

The only thing that actually matters is credit. It means more men the company must hire and it is the difference between getting to choose money or a day off.

That's all well and good, but that assumes two things. One the arbitrator sides with the Union. I don't know what the likely hood of that happening or not is. The union seemed to think that there was enough risk of it going against us that they elected to find a solution outside arbitration. Second, it assumes the company doesn't modify pairings to mitigate the soft time associated with the pay/credit rule.

Exactly. We need to think about the people that are going to live with this decision for years to come. When/if this company finally settles with its staffing, we have to ask ourselves if we improved the lives of those after us.

If we raise the floor of a 4-day from 10:30 (pre-contract), to 19:00 with the trip rig or even 16:00 with the 4/4...we have to ask what would be better 3 years from now.

I can honestly see both ways having an upside and a downside. The way I see it the ADTG allows us to have a floor of 19:00 for a four day vs a floor of 16 hours for a 4 day.

I said I prefer the 4:45, as it guarantees I never will fly a 16 hour 4 day or a 20 hour 5 day. Don't think it can't happen to you.

I wish we could have the best of both worlds, but I have a better chance of winning the lotto than that happening.

Going to go get my Mega Millions ticket now.

This! You can't say you lost x days off or y amount of money because of the ADTG because the company could have done the same kind of streamlining to the pairings with 4 hours pay and credit.

Personally, I think the best solution would be a higher ADTG.

1
The arbitrator is out of the picture now, we get 4 hour min day + PBS credit if we agree to it...per the union conference call

2
80%of the extra credit you see in the data for ADTG we received went to reserve FO's who didn't break garuntee, this is data the company would not provide, but in our union conference call earlier this week it was provided by our union who did all the math, I still don't know why this is being debated

ADTG helps out 5% of the pilots here, if we went to four hour min plus PBS credit, the company would have to staff an additional 10 to 20 pilots, The company wants us to have ADTG because it saves them a ton of money, they were the ones who came up with this in the beginning

Ok, at the time the decision was made, he was not.

I'd Still rather have the ADTG.

ADTG protects everyone from a 16 hour 4 day.

4 hour pay and credit only helps the folks that get 30 hour layovers.

Just use the flow chart! :D

4hr min day benefit:

Is it a 3-day, 4-day, 5-day pairing?
...........NO---> No benefit -end-
...........YES--> Continue
Is there a 30 hr layover?
...........NO---> No benefit -end-
...........YES--> Continue
Do the combined duty days average >5 hrs of pay?
...........NO---> No benefit -end-
...........Yes--> Benefit of 0.1-5.0 credit. -end

How much protection do we need from a 16 hour 4 day? They just cant build very many because we all have to average more than that to be forced up to 90 hours and beyond during our 19 days of work each month. (90/19=4.73) For every min credit trip they build, the have to add more credit to some other trip to make up for it. If you really think they are going to build a bunch, just look at the bid packs from the months right before we got stuck with this 4:45 ADTG. At that time we had 4 hours of pay per day minimum, but not credit. It would seem that the math for them would be similar if we go with 4&4. There were certainly a few 16 hour four day trips, but not a ton.

I see the merits of both, but I just feel long term this will provide the most protection for everyone on the list.

The company will optimize trips to fit whichever option we choose. So what is going on today isn't necessarily what we will get.

I just see the ADTG being a long term hedge against any loss of productivity we may see in the future.

I know we are short staffed now, but that won't always be the case. If we are so short staffed you won't many see 30 hour layovers. They will DH you out (at 80% pay) to go fly some more, instead of letting you rot.

Honestly, either way I'm fine.

Anybody know how efficient the coming 1/3 of all pairings will be with AA?

We haven't even been told where we're flying yet. :rolleyes:

Do we have to do the CBTs before we pick up the EFBs? I'm having a hard time with the LIDO chart CBT without having the charts to look at and go through. If we have to have it completed before picking it up, can you fail the CBT and have to get someone to reset it?

No, just have to do it before you use it on the line.

Perfect. Thanks. The presentation was going in one ear and out the other without having the charts in front of me. I couldn't find an e-link for them like the Jepp charts either.

since it's within the cbt it lets you take it until you pass it.

Saw an article saying IAH and DEN were initial destinations, with other routes currently flown by Mesa to follow as they shift flying out of LAX and in to DFW.

Of course, we've all seen the route map the company sent out, but AA schedules still have Mesa listed for them as of today.

Looks like starting in June we will lose 3 LAX-PDX plus i think 4 LAX-LAS and 1 SLC-MCI to the 717. wonder where they are going to redistribute us to.

Great news!!! :D Hopefully the trend of replacing our flights with mainline DL metal continues! I'm sure we'll be redeployed to other new / test markets out of LAX & SEA as mainline is placed on high demand routes.

Right now, a large portion of DL flights on the west coast are being done by RJs (us and SKYW). Hopefully the long-run picture is a strong DL presence out of LAX & SEA with RJs doing feed from small markets and mainline running the large markets.

Hopefully back east

Yes please!

wont happen

Willing to bet?

If you look at some of the future flying, there's a lot of SEA, but MSP will be picking back up and there's a rumor that LGA could be making a come back this June

The only constant is change, no one get to crazy. Just wager in 6 packs of beer.

2 years ago now, we never touched the West Coast. No one fathomed having an LAX base let alone become the biggest base of ours. Anything can happen in regional playland. You must not have been working at the regionals long enough to realize this Tunes. My guess is Compass is GONE in 4-5 years :eek:

I also vote to ditch ADTG. I experienced both reserve and a bottom line on ADTG. Out of 3 months on reserve ADTG only got me over min guarantee once. Then the first bottom line I got had 4 (yes 4) 30 hr. overnights all built as close as possible to 19 hrs. One was exactly 19. So I worked my butt off the other days we did fly. Under pay for calendar day off those trips would have been worth 23 hrs. That means I either lost 4 days off or about $1180 depending how you want to look at it. Luckily I was able to put several turns on the partial trade board that people picked up. Not gonna lie, that did work well because I lost only minutes of pay to ditch the turns and whoever picked them up got paid at least 4:45 too. This method however is no help when no one picks it up though and there' are never any green days to drop anything. It also works less now since most trips out of my MSP base start by heading out west day 1 and not returning til day 4 or 5 so you can't get rid of any turns. The day trip turns picked up are great for locals looking to add some credit, but what help is that to all our commuter pilots?

In the end I think ADTG helps bottom lineholders, reserves, and pilots living in base, but not nearly as much as we had hoped. Shouldn't seniority mean something though? I don't think we should be working so hard to benefit junior pilots at the expense of senior ones. For those of us on the bottom I know it's hard to swallow, but as don't we all want something to look forward too? Aren't we all going to be moving up the food chain here soon? I had the most to benefit from ADTG, but still don't believe I was better off with it.

My last argument has been said before and I believe it too. If pay for calendar day overnights was repulsive enough to the company to make them resort to underhanded tactics to try and get rid of it, or at least delay it, then that more than anything means it's a good deal for us.

I'd prefer a 4 hr min day for every day away from base but...

The way I read the contract language is 4 hr per DUTY day. Big difference. If staffing allowed it could they fly you somewhere, sit for 2 days, and fly back for a total of 8hrs over 4 days?

Did I misread or misinterpret something?

That's what this whole issue is about. We have the chance to change over now to the system we negotiated 6 months ago which would pay a min of 4 hours per duty day AND 4 hours pay AND CREDIT for any calendar day spent sitting in a hotel. Getting the credit is important so it counts toward your credit for the month which means more days off. So a 4 day trip with 16 hours of total block time and a 30 hr. sit in a hotel on a day would pay 20 hrs.

We currently get the 4 hrs per duty day with an Average Guarantee for the whole trip of 4:45 per day.

The debate is that we have a chance to go to 4 hrs pay and credit for every calender day, but it would cost us the 4:45 ADTG

Maybe it's your wording, but this doesn't seem correct...we do not get 4 hours per duty day currently with application to ADTG...see example below without 30 hour overnight

Day 1
MSP-BZN
T Credit = 2:45

Day 2
BZN-MSP
MSP-EWR
EWR-MSP
T Credit = 8:22

With ADTG = 11:07
With 4 hour min day = 12:22


Another thing I want you all to keep in mind the company does not want to make 16 hour four day pairings, they cannot and will not try to do this, there maybe 1-5 a month but the company is trying to use us as efficiently as possible, when we are working, they want us to work and maximize our usage...again some of you believe ADTG saves us from 16 hour pairings, there are always going to be a few insufficient pairings because PBS cannot assign all the flying perfectly, those trips will go junior. This pilot group fought long and hard for 4 hour min day + PBS credit and I'de hate to see us give the company the upper hand, and stay with this concession...

And the people that get those trips should be able to trade them for more profitable flying and let reserves do the really low credit stuff since they normally don't break min guarantee anyway.

In this case 12:22 would apply. Per the ADTG LOA 6-14:

Where did you see this?

You're joking right? I notice no one else even bothered commenting on this nonsense.

I think what he's saying is anything can happen. Things may look up now and can change rapidly. A good example would be when Mesaba hired street captains. Then basically a 3-way merger happened, the crash in Buffalo, the economy melted down after fuel spiked and then crashed. That's a roller coaster ride many could not have predicted. Who knows, something crazy could happen to Compass. That's why you shouldn't get wrapped around the axle on specific CPA's carrier may have. They're all subject to change.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the info.

Next up. Does ADTG still apply if you drop the last turn of a trip? I think the contract mentions losing min day and having guarantee reduced but doesn't specifically mention ADTG.

If a trip is already at minimum credit why not drop/swap any turns possible?

It does. It sets a minimum of 19 hours.

Of course junior pilots shouldn't be protected from low credit trips. They are junior after all.

Not joking at all. I am purely speculating that Compass could be merged or sold over the next 4-5 years. It is complete ignorance to believe that Compass is some special regional that will experience growth and prosper for its entire existence.

So while the airplanes and some of our pilots (hopefully very few) will likely be here in 4-5 years, I'm saying they could easily be flying under a different name/airline. How many regionals have come and gone in the last 10 years? Too many to even think of. But most of their planes are flying around, just with a different regional's sticker slapped on the side of it