Lear crash in SC
 

Thoughts and prayers.

4 killed, 2 hurt as rock star's jet crashes - Life - MSNBC.com

Travis Barker is one of my favorite drummers...when I saw it on the news I was awestruck! He and his family are in my thoughts and prayers, as well as the other folks aboard....

RIP. Judging from the video looks like a no flap take off.

ATC said they saw sparks while is was on its takeoff roll.

Looks like a 60 to me.

EDIT:

I decided to ax my original sarcasm.

Can we please not play the speculation game on trivial and often wrong information hours after the event? It gets my goat. Thanks.

Tailwinds and Peace the crew and the pax.

it is a lear 60. tail number N999LJ based out of Irvine, CA

Registered to Inter Travel and Services. An article said that it was operated by Global Exec Aviation in Long Beach. I assume the pilots were from Global Exec.

The Associated Press: Feds: Doomed crew in SC crash thought tire blewFeds: Doomed crew in SC crash thought tire blew

By MEG KINNARD – 1 hour ago
WEST COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — The doomed crew piloting a Learjet that crashed on takeoff, killing four people and injuring two popular musicians, thought a tire blew as they hurtled down the runway, a federal safety official said Sunday.


National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman said a cockpit voice recording of the Friday night crash indicates the crew tried to abort the takeoff, but then signaled the efforts were failing.
"The crew reacted to a sound that was consistent with a tire blowout," Hersman said.


Former Blink-182 drummer Travis Barker and celebrity disc jockey DJ AM were critically injured in the crash, but one of their doctors said Sunday he expected them to fully recover.


Two of the musicians' close friends and two crew members were killed when the plane shot off the end of the runway, ripped through a fence and crossed a highway. It came to rest on an embankment a quarter-mile from the end of the runway, engulfed in flames.


Hersman said no cause of the crash has been determined and the investigation is ongoing. She did say that pieces of tire were recovered about 2,800 feet from where the plane started its takeoff. The runway is 8,600 feet long.


The plane was traveling at least 92 mph, its minimum takeoff speed, when the crew thought the tire burst, Hersman said.


The plane was headed for Van Nuys, Calif. It is owned by Global Exec Aviation, a California-based charter company, and was certified to operate last year, Hersman said.


Pilot Sarah Lemmon, 31, of Anaheim Hills, Calif., and co-pilot James Bland, 52, of Carlsbad, Calif., died in the crash. Also killed were Chris Baker, 29, of Studio City, Calif., and Charles Still, 25, of Los Angeles. Baker was an assistant to Barker and Still was a security guard for the musician.
The two musicians suffered second- and third-degree burns but had no other injuries from the crash, said Dr. Fred Mullins, medical director of the Joseph M. Still Burn Center in Augusta, Ga.


Barker was burned on his torso and lower body and DJ AM, whose real name is Adam Goldstein, was burned on an arm and a portion of his scalp, according to a statement from the musicians' families released by the hospital. Such injuries can take a year to fully heal, however, Mullins said he didn't think it would take that long.


Both men were in critical but stable condition, he said.


Several fans visited the hospital over the weekend. One carried a sign that read: "Get Well Travis."


"I was just shocked when I first heard it and I knew that I had to do something," said Ryan Meadows, a 19-year-old college student from Augusta.


Barker and Goldstein had performed a together under the name TRVSDJ-AM at a free concert in Columbia on Friday night. The show, which included performances by former Jane's Addiction singer Perry Farrell and singer Gavin DeGraw, drew about 10,000 people to a neighborhood near the University of South Carolina.


Barker, 32, was one of the more colorful members of the multiplatinum-selling punk rock band Blink-182, whose biggest album was 1999's CD "Enema of the State" and sold more than 5 million copies in the United States alone.


After Blink-182 disbanded in 2005, Barker went on to form the rock band (+44) — pronounced "plus forty-four." He also starred in the MTV reality series "Meet the Barkers" with his then-wife, former Miss USA Shanna Moakler. The show documented the former couple's lavish wedding and home life. Their later split, reconciliation and subsequent break up made them tabloid favorites.


Goldstein, 35, is a popular DJ for hire who at one time was engaged to Nicole Richie and dated singer/actress Mandy Moore. While he became a gossip favorite for his romances, he draws respect from music aficionados for his DJ skills.


Barker and Goldstein performed as part of the house band at the MTV Video Music Awards earlier this month.

Associated Press Writer Page Ivey in Augusta, Ga., contributed to this report.

Might sound ignorant, but if a tire did indeed blow ... why would they not be able to successfully abort the take-off on an 8,600 ft runway? Or with the 1,000 or so feet between the end of the runway and the road?

Please bear in mind, that is only an initial report, and that it was "consistent" with a blown tire.

There is STILL a ways to go before the facts start coming in to determine exactly what contributed to the accident.

There is a problem with Mu or braking effectiveness when there is no tire on the surface. Think of trying to stop a train quickly. Metal on metal, or in this case metal on concrete is not a good condition to try to stop in.
Keep in mind as stated before that this is a preliminary report, wait until the final report to draw conclusions. Many times the initial ones are only the tip of the iceberg.

I get the Mu issue. But if one tire blows, there are x number left, right? I'd have a hard time believing that ALL the tires blew at once. Obviously braking effectiveness would be reduced, but I would still think one should be able to come to a stop. I'm not attempting to draw conclusions, just curious. On a side note, while it would be quite morbid, I think it would also be very interesting to be an accident investigator ....

And yes these are preliminary reports. One of my life rules is I dont believe very much of what the press tells me, especially concerning aviation.

It is very unlikely that you would see sparks if only one of the tires blew. The brake assembly would still be off the ground in that instance, and not making contact with the concrete.
Either way braking effectiveness is cut in over half if one of two tires on any given side blows.

My prayers are with the family and friends of the crew and pax. In situations like this, all of us who are in the aviation industry remember why we are here. It is our passion and our dream. The two crew members were living their dream and their lives were cut short. May we remember our fallin family.

lr 60 brakes
 

if a tire blew and they where trying to abort at high speed with maybe half of the runway left, it probably isnt going to work. if there was only a 1000 feet of runway left it just aint happening, your screwed. the lr60 has a brake issue, there to small. often the aircraft is very limited due to brake energy. its to hard to speculate and we shouldnt, it could happen to any of us.

N999lj
 

Click Here

Local news coverage, includes updates, video coverage by helicopter of runway, crash site. Police dash cam video and related NTSB press releases.

That is not the worst media coverage I've ever seen. Not bad. Now if they can hold the speculation in check - but that is awfully hard to do.

USMCFLYR

Pilots of N999LJ
 

Information regarding the crew;

This is written by a friend of Sarah's;

I personally know the pilot, Sarah, and I am proud to say I tried to mentor her. VERY SHARP lady. Stanford graduate, fluent Spanish. She temporarily gave up her budding multi-engine pilot (& aerobatics instructor) career to follow her now ex-husband to a TSA job in the Northeast. With an FAA dispatcher's license in her pocket, she took a job with Bombardier Canadair/Learjet Flight Operations Dispatch in BDL. That's where I met her and she was GOOD at the job. However, her heart was in the cockpit, and watching pilots come and go daily made the longing to get back to her own pilot career even stronger. Bombardier's politics and changes forced her to make a choice and she took the chance we all take as pilots. She was called for an interpreter job for a Citation operator to go to South America. It was her big break and her first job in a jet. She took out a loan and paid for the Citation type rating when she got back. I know she spent at least 2 years flying Citations, and was offered a chief pilot position, but turned it down. About the same time one of my customers offered her a LR60 type rating to take a contract in Moscow on a 30 day rotation. She accepted it, and went to LR60 initial. The rotation job fizzled before she got to Moscow--due to internal problems within the management company and the Russian company. She then picked up a Citation VII type with Global Executive, and I believe she was flying SIC on a GIV in addtion to her type ratings. I last spoke to her in the May 2008 time frame. She was excited, things were going well, and the world was hers for the taking. She clearly no longer needed mentoring. HOW FAST THINGS CAN CHANGE.

For friends and associates of Jim Bland Co-pilot,

Memorial Service for Jim Bland

Saturday September 27, 2008 - 2 PM
Palomar Airport
Magellan Aviation
Hangar H-9
2006 Palomar Airport Road
Carlsbad, Ca.

As a US Customs Special Agent/Pilot, Jim flew missions in defense of the United States of America for 20 years.

Thank you for sharing that.

Sarah Lemmon Memorial Service
 

Sarah Hagar Lemmon
Though Sarah no longer walks with us . . . she will forever soar in our hearts . . .

Please make memorials in honor of Sarah Hagar Lemmon to Seattle Children's Hospital - Ann Carlson Guild Endowment, Children's Hospital Foundation/ GA Mail stop S-200, P.O. Box 50020, Seattle, WA 98145.

Memorial services will be held Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 1 PM at the Corporate Air center located at the Skagit Regional Airport, 15452 Airport Drive, Burlington, Washington.

Arrangements are under the care of Hawthorne Funeral Home, 1825 E. College Way, Mount Vernon.

Click Here for complete Obituary and Condolence Book

Does that flight from TEB to TEB look like a MX flight?

That's what I was thinking too. I was expecting to see a CAE-TEB flight plan with a actual "departure" time but a blank "arrival" time. I had to re-read it again to see that I was actually looking at the reverse of that route, from TEB-CAE and that the times were correct.

So then I saw the flight information from the day before, on the 18th. Very interesting that TEB seems to have been filed for both the departure and arrival airports. The filed route seems unusual as well. Out of TEB, on a Victor airway, into central Conneticut and then their intentions were????

N999lj
 

The MX flight out of TEB was reportedly due to a Bleed Air issue, also note a diverted flight 6 days prior to arrival at TEB.

Photos show the wreckage with the TR's fully stowed.

There is an unresolved Lear 60 accident FAA Preliminary N9CU were the TR's were locked out.

Robbreid?!? What're you doing here?????

Just visiting . . .
 

Hi Trafly! Just visiting!!!

I drop by every once in awhile to read the forums . . .

lear 60 crash
 

The brakes on the 60 are the same as the 31 but yet the 60 is about 5000lbs more. Your blow a tire and abort the brakes will fry fast on the side that the tire was blown and now you only have 2 of your 4 brakes working, my guess is that they blew a tire at very high speed aborted and cooked the brakes (sparks reported) and went off the end.

The lear 60 has the same brakes as the lear 31 but is 5000lbs more. My guess is that they aborted at high speeds due to the blown tire and cooked the small brake on the side of the blown tire, (sparkes reported) now you only have 2 out of the 4 brakes and a loaded airplane heavy, they were trying to make it to CA.

In addition to being heavy and high speed, they might have been ginger on good side to keep from running off the side of the runway due to differential braking. This would have increased the distance needed to stop as well. Please don't judge the crew as they did everything they possibly could to get that jet stopped. Godspeed to the crew and pax...

Come on, folks, we owe it to the victims, including the pilots, to let the investigation continue and wait for the official report.

Any speculation is completely out of line.

It could be any one of us in the seat next time--maybe even tomorrow. Would you want your family to put up with unfounded speculation?

We should know better than this.

Lear60Capt...your take on this tragady is pretty much my take also..and when discovering that the TR's were found stowed...make me wonder why the TR were found in the stowed position...I will be looking foward to the NTSB report which will probably be months and months away..I am a Lear 35 driver and apreciate them reversers especially when the tiger bites your ass on a high speed short runway abort...speculation is not out of line if it will prevent another crash and loss of life...and my deepest condolences to the families on this tragady....knowledge provides wisdom which hopefull leads to safety...

This post is specifically directed at a trend I see taking place on this thread. I will not speculate on the accident itself. I'm sure that "but for the grace of GOD, there go I" when it comes to accidents.

The trend on this thread has been to discuss the Lears inability to stop due to it's inadequate brake and tire equipment.

Focusing on the airplanes inability to stop has diverted everyones focus from the real issue - the DECISION to abort due to a wheel/tire/brake problem. As I said, I offer NO comment on the CAE accident, I just feel it necessary to strongly remind every pilot of the risk encountered during a high speed abort and of the small chance of a successful abort if said abort is due to any issue that would affect your ability to stop.

Bottom line, condition yourself to GO once you've reached the high speed range (usually accepted to by above 80kts). It is very unlikely that you will be able to stop after a high speed abort. Stopping after a high speed abort requires that the stars be correctly aligned. The brakes must be in good condition. The runway must be in good condition with good braking action. The procedure must be completed correctly. etc.

When I attended FSI for Lear initial (long ago) I was trained to GO once past 80kts for everything except engine failure/TR deployment/loss of directional control. Studies and statistics prove that high speed aborts end up in an accident almost 50% of the time - even when the pilot makes the correct decision and performs the procedure correctly. (Google for Boeing abort study, etc)

Be careful out there men!

You're right, that is what we are conditioned to do. And two things got my attention.

1. This was quoted from the NTSB~ The plane was traveling at least 92 mph, its minimum takeoff speed, when the crew thought the tire burst, Hersman said. ??? (Past 80 kts? Early recognition? Is this just a guess?)

2. When the tire(s) blew, maybe there was "loss of directional control"....

In any case, sad story indeed...RIP.

Even assuming eighty knots, NO brakes, no thrust reversers, and no spoilers; with over a mile of runway remaining, it seems like an aborted take-off should have simply rolled to a less catastrophic conclusion, especially considering the extra drag of the blown tire.

Any thoughts from Lear drivers? Thrust levers sticking (computer forcing them) open in situations like this? What is V1/Vr/V2 on the 60? What is the take-off roll? Perhaps the crew was following the training (over 80, go) some are touting on here; but, with the blown tire, were not able to get up enough speed to fly?

First, the blown tire would not have caused any extra drag. I've blown a lear tire and the can state from experience that the remaining tire will carry the load. I've not studied this particular accident in detail, but I seem to remember that the aircraft went straight off the runway end. Therefore they most likely had directional control which basically rules out the scenario where both tires blew. IOW, a single blown tire would have been a very minor issue if the takeoff had been continued. Again, I'm trying to NOT comment on this particular accident. As far as I know, we do not yet know why they attempted an abort. I am willing to give the crew the benefit of the doubt and conclude that their decision was good. That only emphasises the danger of high speed aborts. Many things could have caused the crew to make a proper abort decision. The blown tire could have somehow ended up fodding out the engine is one possibility that could have put this ill fated crew in an almost no win situation. RIP.


Second, a Lear, any Lear that I know of, will accelerate well with all four tires locked. That's why they train to NEVER set the parking brake when holding in position (line up and wait). It is possible to push up the power and blow the tires before you realize it.

2cents
 

I don't know all the details but I think the aircraft may have been very close to MGTOW with 6 souls (bags) and enough fuel (full) for a west bound trip from South Carolina to KVNY.
So even in a perfect world BFL margin (with the factor) would be very small for the LR60. (Even with the 3-rotor brake system)

Then blow MLG tire or just shed the tread (which has happened to me more than once) and this margin probably goes away.
The possibility also exists that the accelerated tire parts may have damaged the squat switch and depending on the aircraft mod status could have lead to the un-commanded stow of the TR's.

And then we have all the other factors:
Late night take off. (Fatigue)
Possibility of critter on the runway. (Strike critter - damage to other parts of landing gear and aircraft)


The LR60 was made to fly. What ever prompted the apparent attempt to abort is still unclear but we do know that the crews actions preserved the life of two people and for that I am sure they are thankful.

my hats off...

go easy

Travis barker and DJ am were released from the hospital...and not to my suprise, they took a bus home.

NTSB October 22 2008 update . . .
 

NTSB released an accident summary including new factual information.

Click Here for Oct 22/08 NTSB update.

I guess that just goes to show that you don't do RTOs after 80 knots or V1, whichever it is.