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Conundrum....

Old 02-05-2009, 05:46 AM
  #1  
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Default Conundrum....

Let me lay this out......

I came up in Military aviation... then flew two stints over many years with 121 carriers.... and now I fly for a 91/135 outfit with citations.....

My current company hired me with NO citation time, and typed me.....most of our pilots had NO citation time when they came here.

But it seems more and more of the jobs I see posted over the last year or two require specific type ratings with XXXX number hours etc....you get the point. With fewer and fewer jobs willing to train guys it seems many doors for those looking for work are already shut before they can knock on it. I am not a big fan of guys buying type ratings either, but I can easily see where a guy could be in a situation where he CAN NOT move a job is available but he doesnt have the "right" type rating. You have to think that many companies who want to hire typed pilots do so because they have been burned in the past.. hire a guy.. type him...only to have him leave 6 months later. And with some types being very expensive I can see the problem. From the labor standpoint people will say ... well if they treated their people better they wouldnt leave....YES and NO, is my answer to that. I DONT have the answer. The bottom line is that it seems more and more companies are looking for typed with experience to hire vs. hiring that 7000 hour pilot and sending them to initial. What is the brain trust though here on "training contracts"..... as in the employer pays for the training, but you the employee agree to work for a set amount of time so that in the least.... the company can resonably feel they have recouped their investment. I am not sure there are any 100% right or wrong answers here. Thoughts?
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:01 AM
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It's important to realize the airlines vs corporate are like comparing apples and oranges.

Your mileage WILL vary. Personally, I don't have a problem with training contracts, provided that they are reasonable. A type rating (even in a common aircraft such as the Citation) can cost upwards of 25,000 for a single event. (Toss in recurrent at $12K/pilot each year and companies put substantial expense into pilots). It is worth noting that if you sign an agreement, you had better be prepared to pay if you break it. Corporations that retain or employ their own lawyers are a lot more likely to come after you. They are also more likely to have contracts that cover some of the loopholes... If nothing else, the corporate world is a small place... it's not difficult to find out who has and who hasn't broken a contract- especially on a local level.

A GOOD corporate job will pay to type rate the RIGHT person, but in this day and age, many are looking for ways to slash the budget. That means hiring people that already have a type. Even if the type isn't current, it's cheaper to send somebody to a recurrent event than the entire initial course.

The other thing to consider is that with many corporate and charter operators closing up, there is now a surplus of qualified candidates. Just like in the airline world, corporate employers can be a lot more picky when choosing candidates...

When the market for pilot swings, you'll see a reduction in the number of jobs that require type + time in type.
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Old 02-05-2009, 06:21 AM
  #3  
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Time in type is also an insurance driven event. Especially for the folks flying aircraft not requiring type ratings. I don't agree with most of it, but it's just the way things are.

I also agree that now that the market is tight, they can ask for 1000+hrs in type because there's people out there with that experience. Would this divert me from applying for a job, no way. I would think that there's always a chance of getting that job w/o the "required" minimums.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:07 AM
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Insurance is not nearly as restrictive as it used to be. The market is soft right now and underwriters are doing things they never would have done 3-5 years ago just to get business...and the premiums on these more liberal policies are lower than previous, more restrictive ones.

I'm kind of like Josh in that I'm violently opposed to a prorated training contract...but I don't like indentured servitude (which training contracts essentially require) and I do think a company vastly lowers its turnover potential if it provides a good balance of compensation and quality of life. A company wouldn't hesitate to terminate you if it was in its financial best interest, so why should a pilot not have the same ability? Additionally, when hiring a pilot you have to look at the candidates and judge their 'risk' of being a short-time vs. longer-term employee.

I am, however, violently opposed to a pilot paying for their own training out of pocket, subsidizing an individual or corporation operating a multi-million dollar aircraft. I fully understand why some would do this (to better themselves), and deals are often struck for a company to pay part and the individual to pay part, but I think companies who REQUIRE this of their pilots expose their cheapness to the Nth degree. My feelings on this exclude contract pilots, who bear all the financial risk of paying for their own training as a business expense.

My boss asked me about a training contract for the pilot we hired last year (over a pilot who was typed in our aircraft) and I very firmly voiced my opposition to such a thing, using the reasons above...that was the last he's spoken of the topic. If he came to us tomorrow and pushed training contracts on us, I'd ask him many pointed questions about his logic behind requiring them...but ultimately, if the terms were fair I would sign it with only a little hesitation.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ewfflyer View Post
I also agree that now that the market is tight, they can ask for 1000+hrs in type because there's people out there with that experience. Would this divert me from applying for a job, no way. I would think that there's always a chance of getting that job w/o the "required" minimums.

this is a very accurate statement. As the un- or underemployed pilot pool grows larger the Co.'s get more specific, because they can. However, with something like only 180,000, ATP's World wide. I send my resume's to every one, it maybe that the job your soliciting can't find a 1000 hr. G150 typed pilot currently looking for that job, (just an example guys their maybe a ton of them but you get my point.) and pick the next best thing.

This happens every 10 years or so, when I was first comming up in the mid 90's Comair (for example) was charging $10,000 for training on their F.O. just a couple of years ago they were giving bonus's to guys who finished training. The pilot pool was small. We'll see what happens next. but the one thing I've learned in Aviation is cliche but true "its feast or famine".
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:06 PM
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The company I work for required a 2 year training contract to be signed prior to attending every initial. These are for the full cost of the initial (20k-50k) and are prorated (work 1 year, only pay back half the cost). We had a pilot leave about 2 years ago that didn't think the contracts were too viable and the company proved him wrong. Some of our pilots think about theirs daily and consider them a huge downside and others don't mind them at all.
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Old 02-17-2009, 08:19 PM
  #7  
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I would not worry too much about a training contract. You can get out of them by spending a few bucks on a lawyer.
 

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