Getting into corporate flying
01-02-2011, 04:37 AM
#72
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: A CL F Left Right and Center
Posts: 66
Rated or non-rated Challenger 604 First Officer.
USA, Pacific Northwest
- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months
[email protected]
Good luck and Happy New Year!
CP
USA, Pacific Northwest
- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months
[email protected]
Good luck and Happy New Year!
CP
01-02-2011, 12:29 PM
#73
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by Climbto450
The majors provide a certain level of job security that corporate just dosen't.
1) Airliners, the actual aircraft, are the source of income at major airlines and that means you are a part of the process of making money. That corporation, the airline, doesn't exist without planes flying. Compare that to corporate jets who if used right are mostly money savers which means it's still an expense.
2) When an airline is going downhill you know from a million miles away. Especially the legacy carriers and those things don't die. I swear from 2001-2005 there was an article every day in the worthless USA Today about how UAL was going under and it's still here. USAir is still here. Too much assets and creditors to allow an airline to go under evidently. Compare that to hearing the word 'divorce' from one of the boss' friends.
3) If a merger happens you might get screwed but you still get to be a part of the new company. If furloughed you still have a number. I compare that to AT&T and BellSouth, seemed as if there was no security. There may have been some parachutes but BellSouth was a tremendous operation and it was sliced up and then moved to SAT and it's mission changed. May still be a great job but you weren't guaranteed to be a part of that merger because from what I understood there is no such thing as a 'number'. They bought pilots off and then within a short amount of time they hired off the street and may never have called previously employed pilots- and might not have been allowed to per AT&T HR rules. Not sure. That's what I best remember talking to one of them.
What would be nice is running your own ship (corporate job) flying a great jet or prop for a great company that values the aircraft and uses it for all of the right reasons and you have a contract that says if ever the plane is sold you get a golden parachute... and the plane only flies between Monday-Friday and rarely overnights. The job that came nearest to that was a University I saw that flew Citations (King Air's prior to that). It was all mostly day trips and a lot of it was sports related throughout the fall and winter and a smattering of flights in the spring and summer. You believed in your organization, you could be completely in charge and the airplane was vital and whole ownership was the most cost effective means of ownership because of the location of the University... which will never die. The pay and the overall bureaucracy, however, was the trade off for that job's high QOL.
I'd be careful and make sure I chose a major wisely. You can't just go to any airline. I think in the years to come with the belated age 65 retirements you'll see several airlines hire with gang busters with the opportunity to move quickly up the seniority list to higher QOL seniority and paying jets. AMR really comes to mind despite the number on furlough. Possibly Delta as well although that might not really happen until 2013-2015 although rumors are 500-700 pilots in 2011. And if you apply, update your resume often (like every trip) and make an effort to go to a conference. SWA not so much and not because it's not an excellent company and high paying job but there are a lot of young Captains and the pending AAI merger and possible fleet changes that might, as SWA pilots say, make it not as much fun as it once was. But to each their own and you have to determine which one fits your wants and needs the best and what might not be ideal for most may be perfect for you.
At least you'll have choices in bases and planes, variety and relatively strong job security as a whole. In the airlines people say "bid what you want and want what you bid" as in pursue what you want and don't try to out think the system and if you don't have to commute, don't.
FTB
RJ 121 to 135 to 91/135 to living the good life at a Legacy 121 but still having an affinity to CE525s.
Last edited by forgot to bid; 01-02-2011 at 12:48 PM.
01-02-2011, 01:14 PM
#74
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Not on this message board.
Posts: 159
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
there is a lot of truth to this and imho it's because of the following:
1) Airliners, the actual aircraft, are the source of income at major airlines and that means you are a part of the process of making money. That corporation, the airline, doesn't exist without planes flying. Compare that to corporate jets who if used right are mostly money savers which means it's still an expense.
2) When an airline is going downhill you know from a million miles away. Especially the legacy carriers and those things don't die. I swear from 2001-2005 there was an article every day in the worthless USA Today about how UAL was going under and it's still here. USAir is still here. Too much assets and creditors to allow an airline to go under evidently. Compare that to hearing the word 'divorce' from one of the boss' friends.
3) If a merger happens you might get screwed but you still get to be a part of the new company. If furloughed you still have a number. I compare that to AT&T and BellSouth, seemed as if there was no security. There may have been some parachutes but BellSouth was a tremendous operation and it was sliced up and then moved to SAT and it's mission changed. May still be a great job but you weren't guaranteed to be a part of that merger because from what I understood there is no such thing as a 'number'. They bought pilots off and then within a short amount of time they hired off the street and may never have called previously employed pilots- and might not have been allowed to per AT&T HR rules. Not sure. That's what I best remember talking to one of them.
What would be nice is running your own ship (corporate job) flying a great jet or prop for a great company that values the aircraft and uses it for all of the right reasons and you have a contract that says if ever the plane is sold you get a golden parachute... and the plane only flies between Monday-Friday and rarely overnights. The job that came nearest to that was a University I saw that flew Citations (King Air's prior to that). It was all mostly day trips and a lot of it was sports related throughout the fall and winter and a smattering of flights in the spring and summer. You believed in your organization, you could be completely in charge and the airplane was vital and whole ownership was the most cost effective means of ownership because of the location of the University... which will never die. The pay and the overall bureaucracy, however, was the trade off for that job's high QOL.
I'd be careful and make sure I chose a major wisely. You can't just go to any airline. I think in the years to come with the belated age 65 retirements you'll see several airlines hire with gang busters with the opportunity to move quickly up the seniority list to higher QOL seniority and paying jets. AMR really comes to mind despite the number on furlough. Possibly Delta as well although that might not really happen until 2013-2015 although rumors are 500-700 pilots in 2011. And if you apply, update your resume often (like every trip) and make an effort to go to a conference. SWA not so much and not because it's not an excellent company and high paying job but there are a lot of young Captains and the pending AAI merger and possible fleet changes that might, as SWA pilots say, make it not as much fun as it once was. But to each their own and you have to determine which one fits your wants and needs the best and what might not be ideal for most may be perfect for you.
At least you'll have choices in bases and planes, variety and relatively strong job security as a whole. In the airlines people say "bid what you want and want what you bid" as in pursue what you want and don't try to out think the system and if you don't have to commute, don't.
FTB
RJ 121 to 135 to 91/135 to living the good life at a Legacy 121 but still having an affinity to CE525s.
1) Airliners, the actual aircraft, are the source of income at major airlines and that means you are a part of the process of making money. That corporation, the airline, doesn't exist without planes flying. Compare that to corporate jets who if used right are mostly money savers which means it's still an expense.
2) When an airline is going downhill you know from a million miles away. Especially the legacy carriers and those things don't die. I swear from 2001-2005 there was an article every day in the worthless USA Today about how UAL was going under and it's still here. USAir is still here. Too much assets and creditors to allow an airline to go under evidently. Compare that to hearing the word 'divorce' from one of the boss' friends.
3) If a merger happens you might get screwed but you still get to be a part of the new company. If furloughed you still have a number. I compare that to AT&T and BellSouth, seemed as if there was no security. There may have been some parachutes but BellSouth was a tremendous operation and it was sliced up and then moved to SAT and it's mission changed. May still be a great job but you weren't guaranteed to be a part of that merger because from what I understood there is no such thing as a 'number'. They bought pilots off and then within a short amount of time they hired off the street and may never have called previously employed pilots- and might not have been allowed to per AT&T HR rules. Not sure. That's what I best remember talking to one of them.
What would be nice is running your own ship (corporate job) flying a great jet or prop for a great company that values the aircraft and uses it for all of the right reasons and you have a contract that says if ever the plane is sold you get a golden parachute... and the plane only flies between Monday-Friday and rarely overnights. The job that came nearest to that was a University I saw that flew Citations (King Air's prior to that). It was all mostly day trips and a lot of it was sports related throughout the fall and winter and a smattering of flights in the spring and summer. You believed in your organization, you could be completely in charge and the airplane was vital and whole ownership was the most cost effective means of ownership because of the location of the University... which will never die. The pay and the overall bureaucracy, however, was the trade off for that job's high QOL.
I'd be careful and make sure I chose a major wisely. You can't just go to any airline. I think in the years to come with the belated age 65 retirements you'll see several airlines hire with gang busters with the opportunity to move quickly up the seniority list to higher QOL seniority and paying jets. AMR really comes to mind despite the number on furlough. Possibly Delta as well although that might not really happen until 2013-2015 although rumors are 500-700 pilots in 2011. And if you apply, update your resume often (like every trip) and make an effort to go to a conference. SWA not so much and not because it's not an excellent company and high paying job but there are a lot of young Captains and the pending AAI merger and possible fleet changes that might, as SWA pilots say, make it not as much fun as it once was. But to each their own and you have to determine which one fits your wants and needs the best and what might not be ideal for most may be perfect for you.
At least you'll have choices in bases and planes, variety and relatively strong job security as a whole. In the airlines people say "bid what you want and want what you bid" as in pursue what you want and don't try to out think the system and if you don't have to commute, don't.
FTB
RJ 121 to 135 to 91/135 to living the good life at a Legacy 121 but still having an affinity to CE525s.
FWIW- I only agree to an extent, and voice my opinion just to share the other side of the coin.
First-- my time at a regional carrier and then at a legacy carrier were both great-- but comparing it to my job now and my previous job is like comparing a ferrari to a honda.
I was on reserve for most of my career-- when I started at the regional, it was 18 months to upgrade, and 2.5 yrs to Delta--- and at 15 months into my time, 9/11 happened... we all know about that. So I took the first upgrade I could, and sat reserve for the majority of my time there (by choice, yes, but if I wanted out of there, I needed turbine PIC time, so not really).
So then I get hired at a major airline... wooo hoo.. I made it. The promise of upgrade was only a few years away. The starting pay was less than half of what I was making, but that's ok... I'll make it up quickly. Then furloughs, flowbacks, etc... now back as junior as you can be, except now you have a family to worry about... and when you get furloughed from a major, you are not eligible for any lateral transition... Job security with a major/legacy? I don't think so... wasn't US Air furloughed up to 10 or 12 years, something ridiculous like that? Ask the guy who was hired 12 years ago and now out on the street if he felt good about his job "security". Ask any Eastern pilot about their job security! I think the phrase "job security" is not in aviation anymore, no matter where you work!
I can tell you there are FANTASTIC corporate jobs out there. I got laid off in early 2009 from a great job where I averaged 15-18 days off per month, and made a great salary. Then spent a few months unemployed, and then got a job making more money, and averaging 20.5 days off per month (for 2010). The trips I do now are usually one leg somewhere, sit for a couple of days, and one leg home. So we get to enjoy our destinations for a bit. The downside is- yes, I am on call, but we know our schedule for each month- it may modify a bit here and there, but we can look at a calendar month and know what to expect. I don't mind cooking the books. I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser"
). I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!!
But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now). I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.
01-02-2011, 04:42 PM
#75
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 320 F.O.
Posts: 1,386
Originally Posted by QuietSpike
FWIW- I only agree to an extent, and voice my opinion just to share the other side of the coin.
First-- my time at a regional carrier and then at a legacy carrier were both great-- but comparing it to my job now and my previous job is like comparing a ferrari to a honda.
I was on reserve for most of my career-- when I started at the regional, it was 18 months to upgrade, and 2.5 yrs to Delta--- and at 15 months into my time, 9/11 happened... we all know about that. So I took the first upgrade I could, and sat reserve for the majority of my time there (by choice, yes, but if I wanted out of there, I needed turbine PIC time, so not really).
So then I get hired at a major airline... wooo hoo.. I made it. The promise of upgrade was only a few years away. The starting pay was less than half of what I was making, but that's ok... I'll make it up quickly. Then furloughs, flowbacks, etc... now back as junior as you can be, except now you have a family to worry about... and when you get furloughed from a major, you are not eligible for any lateral transition... Job security with a major/legacy? I don't think so... wasn't US Air furloughed up to 10 or 12 years, something ridiculous like that? Ask the guy who was hired 12 years ago and now out on the street if he felt good about his job "security". Ask any Eastern pilot about their job security! I think the phrase "job security" is not in aviation anymore, no matter where you work!
I can tell you there are FANTASTIC corporate jobs out there. I got laid off in early 2009 from a great job where I averaged 15-18 days off per month, and made a great salary. Then spent a few months unemployed, and then got a job making more money, and averaging 20.5 days off per month (for 2010). The trips I do now are usually one leg somewhere, sit for a couple of days, and one leg home. So we get to enjoy our destinations for a bit. The downside is- yes, I am on call, but we know our schedule for each month- it may modify a bit here and there, but we can look at a calendar month and know what to expect. I don't mind cooking the books. I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser").
I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!! But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now).
I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.
First-- my time at a regional carrier and then at a legacy carrier were both great-- but comparing it to my job now and my previous job is like comparing a ferrari to a honda.
I was on reserve for most of my career-- when I started at the regional, it was 18 months to upgrade, and 2.5 yrs to Delta--- and at 15 months into my time, 9/11 happened... we all know about that. So I took the first upgrade I could, and sat reserve for the majority of my time there (by choice, yes, but if I wanted out of there, I needed turbine PIC time, so not really).
So then I get hired at a major airline... wooo hoo.. I made it. The promise of upgrade was only a few years away. The starting pay was less than half of what I was making, but that's ok... I'll make it up quickly. Then furloughs, flowbacks, etc... now back as junior as you can be, except now you have a family to worry about... and when you get furloughed from a major, you are not eligible for any lateral transition... Job security with a major/legacy? I don't think so... wasn't US Air furloughed up to 10 or 12 years, something ridiculous like that? Ask the guy who was hired 12 years ago and now out on the street if he felt good about his job "security". Ask any Eastern pilot about their job security! I think the phrase "job security" is not in aviation anymore, no matter where you work!
I can tell you there are FANTASTIC corporate jobs out there. I got laid off in early 2009 from a great job where I averaged 15-18 days off per month, and made a great salary. Then spent a few months unemployed, and then got a job making more money, and averaging 20.5 days off per month (for 2010). The trips I do now are usually one leg somewhere, sit for a couple of days, and one leg home. So we get to enjoy our destinations for a bit. The downside is- yes, I am on call, but we know our schedule for each month- it may modify a bit here and there, but we can look at a calendar month and know what to expect. I don't mind cooking the books. I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser"
). I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!!
But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now). I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.
01-02-2011, 06:56 PM
#76
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by QuietSpike
I started my own management company, and now do this for multiple aircraft. I just don't mind it (I guess I am the "micromanager desk loser").
).BTW, the one thing I wish I had done was a reserve styled points system for assigning trips when I did at a time have multiple pilots. You get X points for each hour flown, more Y points for overnights and Z points for whatever else but at the end of the day if you fly you get points and the next trip goes to the pilot with the least points. It'd require a shoe horn of course but I wish I had offered that to the pilots I had at one point managed.
Originally Posted by QuietSpike
I guess the point I am trying to make is, there is no "right" answer or "better path". They both have risks, they both have reward. I miss flying a Boeing product!! But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now).
I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.
But I do not miss the schedule, the time away, the low pay (compared to now). I do not think there is any "security" to anything nowadays... In fact, when someone young wants to get into aviation, I always tell them to make sure you love it and are passionate about it, because it is no fairy tale anymore.
Two pieces of advice I got from someone who I believe was at one time Delta's youngest L1011 Captains and that is "someone has always done it younger, faster and better than you can so just enjoy yourself" and you're nothing special so if she'll break up with him to go out with you she'll break up with you to go out with him and if she'll go home with you on the first night then she'll go home with anybody... skip that last one... it's not as relevant to this topic as I thought.
How about just be mindful of what can be wrong, don't be emotional about job choices, to each his own, listen to others and lastly give, save and live off the rest so that you give yourself the margin to take advantage of opportunities or better handle the worst.
01-02-2011, 07:30 PM
#77
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by captainprop
Rated or non-rated Challenger 604 First Officer.
USA, Pacific Northwest
- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months
[email protected]
Good luck and Happy New Year!
CP
USA, Pacific Northwest
- ATP Multi-Engine Land rating
- Meet the requirements of CFR 61.55
- Hold a FAA 1st Class Medical Certificate
- Possess a FAA English Speaking endorsement
- Hold a Valid Passport
- Minimum 3000 hrs total time fixed wing
- Minimum 250 hrs multi-engine jet aircraft
- Logged at least 500 hrs as a pilot (PIC or SIC) during the previous 24 months
[email protected]
Good luck and Happy New Year!
CP
Gotta love the ads who cant even say who they are!
01-03-2011, 12:52 AM
#78
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: A CL F Left Right and Center
Posts: 66
Yes, but some companies don't want to be seen as recruiting staff for their jets or even less - be seen owning a jet..... I know quite a few companies who do it this way. Once they know you meet their profile they are happy to tell you all about who they are and what they have to offer, fair enough I say.
01-03-2011, 03:11 PM
#80
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 423
Originally Posted by captainprop
Yes, but some companies don't want to be seen as recruiting staff for their jets or even less - be seen owning a jet..... I know quite a few companies who do it this way. Once they know you meet their profile they are happy to tell you all about who they are and what they have to offer, fair enough I say.
What kind of jobs are filled on message boards or pilot job boards with strangers?
Who even has to advertise (aside HR requirements) today?...nevermind create some lame description and a gmail address.
Needing to be cheesy (and sneaky?) is a pretty big red flag IMO. "[email protected]"...
And why in the world would a pilot advertise for his own replacement?
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