Citation barrel roll (video)
 

I would have to say that technically that's an aileron roll.

Pure stupidity! All you need to do is F* that up, end up in a split S over speed, and or over stress the airframe. Then you could end up like that starcheck crew, or worse pull the wings off, or the worst case do unseen damage to the wings and some other poor sap looses the wings because of you overstressed the airframe and didn't say anything! Not implying any one here is responsible of this BTW.

RedGuy,

I was thinking the same thing. Sh*t like that really p*sses me off. There's absolutely no reason to be doing that in an Citation, even if you are capable of pulling it off. Unless that was done in an upset recovery course (and why would you be rolling during that type of training), there's no point in any maneuver like that in a transport aircraft.

These bozos might come out okay, but it has a strong potential to put excessive stresses on the plane that will hurt some other person that has no clue what happened previously.

While I dont support their actions and would never encourage someone to do that it can be done safely without loading the aircraft anywhere near its stress limits. Most people do not have much aerobatic experience and do not understand what happens to an airplane in these "unusual" attitudes. The following is not an encouragement in any way nor am I saying that anyone should try it. Many will try it anyways and I will write it to keep them safer.

In the case of a simple aileron roll there are a few key things to keep in mind when trying to reduce loads on the aircraft. The first is speed. You want to start the manuever at a higher speed rather than lower. In an aircraft that rolls as slow as many transport aircraft the nose will drop a significant amount through the roll. Starting the roll at a higher airspeed will reduce this nose down attitude. The next part of the sequence is pulling the nose high before starting the roll. This will help to ensure you dont end the roll in a severe nose down attitude. In my opinion the pilots in this video should have brought the nose even another 10 degrees higher. The third is NEVER turn it into a split S. While performing a roll for the first time many people freeze up when inverted and make the decision to pull through a half loop to get the dirty side down. This is where you will overstress the aircraft. Keep the aileron over and roll to normal flight instead of pulling.

Once agian I am not an expert nor do I suggest you try any of this on your own or in an aircraft not designed to fly aerobatics. I am speaking from my aerobatic experience in aircraft designed for this purpose.

Ha, I will only get flamed for my response, but I'm not going to chicken out for it. I just enjoy the fact that there are pilots that for some reason video tape things that aren't legal, and probably thought it'd never get on the net. I'll be honest, I enjoyed the roll. To me, it looked more like a barrel roll, since the pitch rose and fell during the proper times in the roll. Doesn't look to me that they over-loaded the airframe at any time, or even close to that matter(I didn't see any wing flex, I watched it about 5 times trying to see it.) This is besides the point though.

I'm not for or against this. If you choose to do these extra-curricular activities, you best be aware of the consequences towards you and others that could fly the aircraft in the future. Look at Bob Hoover, one of the best damn sticks to demonstrate an airplanes ability!!! He did things with that Shrike that were amazing and beautiful. If he never stepped out of the box, we would've never seen them.

I'll just finish up with a good quote, "There's a time and a place for everything." Nuf Said

1. I'm willing to bet, Bob Hoover these guys ain't. Bob Hoover perfected his air show in a P-38, an airplane built to handle the stresses of making a mistake in aerobatics, before even trying it in the Shrike. I think Bob Hoover would probably beat the #$%^ out of these guys if he could find them.
2. Bob Hoover's Shrike was re-certified under Experimental-Airshow/Exhibition. I doubt very much that this Citation was re-certified. If not, unless some one knows somethings different, it is restricted from aerobatic maneuvers. Having exceeded it's limitations this airplane is no longer airworthy until it has been inspected. Even airplanes certified for some maneuvers, such as aerobatic 152s, MUST be loaded correctly to be operated as such. Exceeding these limitations even in an aerobatic aircraft means all bets are off... as some have found in 152s when spins have gone flat due to CG.
3. I doubt very much that the pilot owns this airplane. So he was screwing around with some else's property in a way the owner is probably not aware of. Unless this guy owns the airplane, he violated the trust put in him by the owner.
4. This video was of the successful barrel roll. I doubt they saved any of possible unsuccessful ones. If there were unsuccessful ones, would YOU want to fly the airplane? I would not... even with the successful one I saw.
5. Reason number 5 not to perform aerobatics in uncertified airplanes. http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id...11X12105&key=1
I'll finish up with a good quote. "There's a time and a place for everything." Doing aerobatics in an airplane not certified for it, especially one you do not own, is grossly irresponsible, immature, and hardly the kind of behavior I would want to emulate or condone as a professional pilot. Nuf said.

Pending on what your state of mind is, quoting my quote in such manner, you are actually in agreement with what I'm thinking. The Time is irrelevant, but the "place" is being in a proper aircraft.

This is why I love the internet, personality and perception of character are impossible to read. My first sentence says it all. I"m not 100% sure if you are arguing my points by the quote, or supporting them by definitions. I'll admit I left it wide open for interpretation. I'm just curious

Bottome line: cool video

guys, chill out, any and every plane will do this. Its a 1 G manauever, oil/fuel will not be a problem for the less that 2 sec your inverted. No damage done, 1 g is 1 g to the plane upside down or not

Idiots
 

There is just no way that anyone can justify what was done here as anything but a big bag of BS! I don't care if these guys are aerobatic instructors and have done this a thousand times, they were stupid to even think about doing this and worse videotaping it. I for one hope there is some way to trace this and they get their asses canned!

I mean...why? These are nothing but little boys still trying to show off, and unfortunately they found an immature audience that applauds them.

First off the airplane is not certified for those type of manuevers. Second, I would bet cash money the owner(S) would press charges and push for violations after firing them. Can the airplane handle it? There are reasons why it is not certified for aerobatic manuevers you bunch of idiots. beyond the airframe and engines, there are a host of other things that need to be thought about like all the various parts of the interior, avionics, baggage compartments, and anyone with citation time can tell you that it is nothing but a flimsy little snap on door that separates baggage from certain avionics, batteries etc.... all it takes is for one little **** up and there you have it.

This brings to mind another wonderful pair that decided to showboat.....unfortunately for them their little "trick" cost them their lives and put an otherwise good canadair regional jet through the ground. I dont care what other secondary causes you might blame, fact is they decided to showboat an otherwise normal thing like going up to the airplanes max ceiling, but their focus on showboating and not on piloting is the point behind all this.

This may fall on deaf ears, and if anyone thinks...awww shut up, this is no big deal.....then i say fine. please showboat only when you are ferrying and that way we wont have to worry about you bringing anyone else down with you and wont have to worry about running into your type out on the line.

unfortunately for you types....your moment of clarity will come when you reap the violations for being caught or worse....as your showboating flashes between your eyes right before you......

AVIATING IS TERRIBLY UNFORGIVING OF ANY CARELESSNESS OR RECKLESSNESS.

God, I love this. Chicken out? what?....on an anonymous internet board? Real courage there buddy!

Allow me to inform you on some things. Bob Hoover was an airforce test pilot. He was the backup pilot to Chuck Yeager on the Mach 1 test program. He doesn't step outside the box, but does things that he was trained for like operating on the edges of the envelope. His gift is that he truly loves what he does, his passion and imagination turns flying into the artform that it is, and that is what endears him to millions! He would tell you that yes, there is a time and place for everything and he would also tell you that

"there are bold pilot, and there are old pilots, But there are NO old bold pilots"
unfortunately for people like you who think this is cool, you dont know enough to know better, but hopefully one day you'll get it, so that you can join the old club.

I dont mean to come off as someone shaking my fingers down at people, it just drives me crazy to witness dangerous and carelessness being cheered at.


WTF?

Please don't do even this unless you have had the airplane recertified, as Bob Hoover did. He had the guts to do it publicly, and recertified his Shrike so it would never be flown by anyone else. I do not want to be the unsuspecting pilot who takes up an airplane that has been put through the numbers by these idiots.

Look at Bob Hoover, one of the best damn sticks to demonstrate an airplanes ability!!! He did things with that Shrike that were amazing and beautiful. If he never stepped out of the box, we would've never seen them.
As I posted before to this stupid statement. Bob Hoover had his airplane recertified Experimental-Airshow/Exhibition and was man enough to do his demonstrations publicly in his own airplane. Once he had it recertified, there was almost no chance his Shrike would ever again carry passengers.
These guys are a couple of immature cowards.

Cool Vid...

Why does this thing p@#$#@ so many people off. First things first, does anyone know any FACTS as to why this was done. Was it authorized or better yet who did this maneuver. If this was done by so called professionals just out of curiosity, and not some maufacturer testing of some kind then that I do agree is down right stupidity.

HUH? ok, I'll give you the benefit of th doubt that you approach things like I do....that is with a fair and balanced approach and look into both sides of a story before deciding or opining....but you have got to be kidding me here!

If it was Cessna doing this they would have made a hell of a publicity announcement along with spare no expense marketing (whatever they are touting). they would have done this from the cockpit as well, showing you what was happening up front and to head off the naysayers, they would have on file some sort of experimental status with the Feds should anyone get excited about this.....check cessna's website and you'll not find one kilobyte's worth mention of this.......so uhhh i dont think this is cessna or officially sanctioned.

Its not only the fact that we have little boys out there that havent grown out of their "hero" phases and are doing stupid shyte like this.....but that their kind seems to find an audience that applauds their actions and therefore encourages them to repeat said mistakes.

what's more, say they did damage or weaken something.....it doesnt go noticed till some time or worse.......it goes unnoticed and then at some point that weakness becomes a failure and then the unsuspecting people on the plane at that point in the future reaps the consequences of these idiots.

if you look into certain accidents in the past several have been caused by hairline cracks in metal or by something the size of a grain of sand in the worst place possible.....things like this can happen, it's just shows how aviating can be quite vulnerable at times......but now doing something like this in an aircraft that is not certified for it just invites additional possibilities into something.....

people become amazed when planes and engines can go for a lifetime without major incident, but become speechless when a hairline crack can bring down a DC-10 on rotation or a B747 inflight with hundreds on board.....

think guys......

And what implied that my "Stupid Statement" had nothing to do with how he handled that issue????? Jesus you guys are wired up and looking for a fight. I talked with a guy that had the honor to fly with Bob, and he said it was absolutely amazing the mans skill, smoothness, and knowledge.

So until next time, Keep on Flaming, seeing how you guys have nothing positive to say about anything in the world, which I'm sure is ending tomorrow in your eyes anyways.

Again:
1. These guys are not Bob Hoover.
2. Bob Hoover was above board when he did these things; he was not some coward who hid. There was never a question about which airplane he did it in, and since the airplane he was flying was recertified there were no worries about some unsuspecting saps flying it under 135 (once an airplane is certified experimental-airshow/exhibition it is difficult to go back). When he was done with the airplane he gave it to the Air Space Museum again removing any chance that it would ever carry passengers.
When people buy used aerobatic aircraft, it is assumed the airplane has done aerobatics. When some one buys a used transport airplane, it is assumed it has NOT done aerobatics.
I am fed up with the "Well Bob Hoover did it" excuse.

Actually, you're wrong. An Aileron roll keeps the plane on axis and you are at -1g while inverted. Where a barrel roll keeps the plane close to +1g all the way around. All you have to do is see the attitude at the beginning and end to know which it was.

Stupid
 

This is stupid!

It seems like a lot of you out there seem to forget about the avionics in an airplane. The Citation is not made to to stuff like that, and it will screw up instruments in a second.

Ignorance abounds in this business.......you usually don't have to look too far, it's sitting in the seat next to you Captain Rogue.

Frankley the Barrell roll in the 707 performed by Kelly Johnston was far more impressive than this. The only possible harm may be to the gyros, if in fact this was an older version of the near jet.

From todays AIN:

My guess is that this was more likely than not, the last flight for the learjet captain for a long while. Can't say I feel too sorry for him either.

I gotta be totally honest that looked a little nuts... I wonder what their airspeed was in that maneuver???? Also I wonder if they did that up in the class alpha airspace, I haven't a clue where the video was shot. I heard of a lear 55 barrell rolling out of KSDF one night.

Also heres yet another video of someone who has obviously blown a fuse... Heres a beech 1900, if the roll isn't enough to cause alarm, check out how low the guy goes over this river.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbzwqIxt1q8

Just by chance I ran across yet another African Beech 1900 video... these guys are nuts. Of course I am not really sure who is more nuts, the pilots or the sorry sucker with the camera especially in the first 30 seconds of the vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ir34G...related&search=

From a website in regards to Barrel roll G loading.... http://stason.org/TULARC/sports/avia...s-Figures.html

The Barrel Roll is a not competition maneuver. I The barrel roll is a
combination between a loop and a roll. You complete one loop while
completing one roll at the same time. The flight path during a barrel
roll has the shape of a horizontal cork screw. Imagine a big barrel,
with the airplanes wheels rolling along the inside of the barrel in a
cork screw path. During a barrel roll, the pilot experiences always
positive G's. The maximum is about 2.5 to 3 G and the minimum about 0.5 G.

I only posted this for those that said a barrel roll is 1g flight....i'd say typically it is 2g's at a minimum as you are pulling up to begin it, and pulling up to end it. At the top is when you may lessen the pull and may enter the less than 1g range (but if done at the right speed you would never need to relax back stick pressure).

I am by no means an expert aerobatic pilot, I do however do these procedures on a regular basis in the T-6 Texan II

http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtPSp_5d7...related&search=
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JtPSp_5d7...related&search=

There's one of a lear doing a roll in a low flyby.

I remember reading about a Lear aerobatic routine- like, professional- a few years ago. Anybody know if anything happened with that?

Supporting something like this roll by the way, does show your lack of flight experience AND your hazardous additude.....

If you are going to do aerobatics, do it in a certified plane, and learn how to do it from someone who knows what they are doing.

If you suddenly feel an urge to try a simple maneuver in an aircraft that is NOT certified for it, you have just become a test pilot, and anything could happen...... which brings me to my next point.....

......If you are actually skilled enough in aerobatics to roll any aircraft out there, you wouldnt be doing it for the hell of it.

Any SKILLED aerobatic pilot will tell you that if someone is rolling a plane that isnt certified for it, they havent received enough aerobatic training to make them a skilled aerobatic pilot. Think about it.

This is kind funny because its kinda like employees at McDonalds arguing about rocket science... they have no idea what they are really talking about and they think no one will speak up on their speculation.

well, sorry to call you on this one buddy, but that video is an "aileron roll".

What you described up there is techically called a "slow roll" -a roll on the long. axis.

All who said "Aileron Roll", collect 500 points.

All who said "those guys are idiots for making that video" collect 1000 points, and keep your pilots license and job.

Do you think stuff like that happens alot more than people hear about or not?

Yes.
And here is another reason you don't do them. Especially with kids on board.
Now will you "pilots" supporting this, and giving credence to people who do this PLEASE put a sock in it before more kids are killed.


NTSB Identification: ATL07FA077
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, April 22, 2007 in Hamilton, GA
Aircraft: Beech 58, registration: N5647C
Injuries: 5 Fatal.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On April 22, 2007, about 1451 eastern daylight time, a Beech BE-58, N5647C, registered to Renaissance Aircraft Management LLC, operating as a 14 CFR Part 91 personal flight, broke up in flight in the vicinity of Hamilton, Georgia. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and no flight plan was filed. The airplane was destroyed. The private pilot and 4 passengers were fatally injured. The flight originated from Jack Edwards Airport, Gulf Shores, Alabama, at about 1300 central daylight time.

A witness stated he was in his boat fishing in a lake in the vicinity of his home. He heard an airplane approaching his location from the southeast to the northwest. It sounded as if the pilot was performing some acrobatic maneuvers. The witness looked up and could not see the airplane. The engine noise continued to increase in intensity and the witness observed the airplane to the north of the lake heading northwest. The airplane was high and descending very fast in a 45 to 60 degree nose down attitude. The witness stated he observed a wing or part of the tail separate from the airplane in the vicinity of Hamilton Mulberry Grove Road. He immediately went to his boat dock and to his home and called the 911 emergency operators to report the accident.

A motorist approached a Georgia State Patrol Officer at the accident scene and informed the Officer that he was a friend of the deceased pilot. He further informed the officer that he was planning on purchasing an airplane from the pilot, and the pilot was going to use the money from the sale of the airplane to purchase the Beech 58 that he was flying at the time of the accident. The motorist further stated that the accident pilot "flying skills were below his standards because the pilot was known for overstressing the planes he flew." The motorist further stated from having flown with him and he made a statement to a friend about three weeks ago that the accident pilot would probably crash an airplane within the next year.

A friend of the pilot stated the pilot was in his shop on Friday, April 20, 2007, before he departed to Gulf Shores, Alabama on a fishing trip in his Beech 58. The friend informed the pilot, "That he thought he was stupid and not to do anything in the airplane that would get him hurt." The pilot stated, "I think I can roll this airplane." The friend stated, "The pilot had been at Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, during the week and had observed a performer rolling a Beech 18, and the deceased pilot just kept the rolling issue in his head." The friend stated the pilot had flown with a retired airline pilot, who owns a Beech 55, and the pilot had rolled the airplane with the deceased pilot as a passenger.

Another friend of the deceased pilot stated, he was in the right front seat of the airplane on April 19, 2007, on a return flight from Sun N' Fun in Lakeland, Florida, with two other passengers in the back seats. They departed Lakeland, Florida, and the pilot climbed to an initial cruising altitude of 9, 500 feet. The autopilot was on and the airplane was cruising at 220 knots. The pilot climbed to 10,500 feet to see if they could get a better ground speed and eventually descended back down to 9,500 feet. A short time later, the pilot stated, "I want to try something." The pilot rolled the airplane to the left side, and then back to the right side with the autopilot off and stated, "I believe its possible to roll this airplane."

The pilot pushed down on the control yoke, initiated a descent, and turned the airplane to the left, pulled back on the control yoke, and the airplane went up and over to the right like a spiral until the airplane was in a knife-edge attitude. The friend of the pilot stated he did not know what airspeed they obtained while the pilot was performing this maneuver and stated, " It got me out of my comfort zone, and I could not handle it." The friend stated he grabbed the flight controls, leveled the airplane, and stated to the pilot, "I can not do this." The pilot replied, "I believe it is possible to roll this airplane." The pilot descended down to 7,500 feet and leveled off in cruise flight, and there was no further discussion about rolling the airplane. A short time later, the pilot pulled the power back on the right engine, feathered the propeller, and they continued towards Griffin, Georgia, in cruise flight. The pilot started the engine, and they made their decent and landing at Griffin.

Here's another incident that just happened too, read both articles for the full story;

First account -
http://www.9and10news.com/category/story/?id=115832

Then the truth-
9&10 News: Pilot Lied about Two Mid-Air Collisions

Younkin and Franklin RIP
 

The pilot was Bobby Younkin, and he put on a tremendous show with his Lear 23.
Unfortunately, he was killed during an airshow in Canada, along with Jimmy Franklin back in 05.
Looks as though both of their sons are going to continue the airshow tradition, in memory of their fathers.
The Lear is in a museum in Arkansas.
I believe you can find more here.
http://www.arkairmuseum.org/aircraft...-learjet23.php

Being from Arkansas, that story still makes me sad. Younkin and Franklin were excellent pilots and people. I saw Younkin's first performance in the lear years ago, amazing.

breach of discipline
 

whether it is a barrel roll or an airlerone roll is irrellavent. The fact is it's serious breach of flight discipline. Stuff like that gets you killed. The Air Force is full of stories of experienced aerobatic pilots performing unauthorized maneuvers and impromtu airshows for friends and family and packing it in right in front of thier loved ones. The two knuckleheads from Moody being the most recent example.

Didn't a couple of fractional guys or regional jet guys try something on a ferry flight and seriouly damage the aircraft? Those guys in the video pulled a whole great big handfull of stuff from thier bag of luck. Hopefully the next time they reach in there it won't be empty.

If aerobatics kills seasoned performers like Younkin, the Thunderbirds, the Blue Angels, and others......................Should you do it if you don't know what you are doing?