Unless congress gets really stoopid, those leaving under this circumstance will have to repay any upfront bonuses.

I was really taking about the AD commitments for pilots. While not common, at the service academies, you would get a real POS that did something so egregious, but wasn’t a jail-time offense. The services didn’t want them to serve, so they would get a big chicken dinner and have to repay the service for their commitment.

I could envision something similar (- the BCD), calculating the training cost for the remaining years of service to repaid. But even then, there are plenty of people who absent some negative characterization of their discharge, would look at that math and find it in their favor.

Not gonna happen.

Go read the NDAA.

What part of that is not gonna happen? Not going to have to pay back their service so basically they get free UPT - or - not going to get a less than honorable discharge which I realize is foolishly in the NDAA?

They are not having to "repay" anything as someone here was inferring in their post.

Focus, please.

That's not addressed in the NDAA. I have no idea what they'll do of course as that is way in the rear view mirror, but it would be a huge failure of leadership to allow a grift like that to occur.

Yes it is.

Go read it. You are lying here - again.


So is the change in honorable versus LTH for jab mandate stuff.

Got some professional advice; before you stick your foot in your mouth, again. Go do some reading. Take about a month, then come back here. I'd be happy to provide you a professional reading list to assist you.

You’re having a discussion in your head again that only you are having. The NDAA discusses the characterization of a discharge, not the need to pay back bonuses, commitments, etc, Even a PALACE CHASE participant has to pay back funds they received when they don’t fulfill those commitments and that’s a supported program.

Hopefully you’re not giving people advice of any consequence.

Not talking about PALACE CHASE totally different animal.

Don't change the floor.

So here’s an example. A kid finished UPT pre-mandate. Sees a way to curtail his ADSC of 10 years by saying he doesn’t want to get vaccinated. Gets discharged with 5 years remaining on his commitment. Gets hired by Delta and of course, gets jabbed.

A kid doing palace chase doing the exact same thing would have to pay down his obligation if he did not fulfill his commitment. You’d be cool with that? That’s nuts.

Unless Congress gets really stoopid?

That group of people has been relentlessly STOOPID for a long bloody time. What on EARTH makes you think this situation will be any different?

Gallup Congressional approval ratings:

https://i.ibb.co/vBnBnc3/AE4-A99-B9-...FA6-BBC801.jpg

Their approval rating is only marginally higher than most STDs.

No

Go read the NDAA.

No back charges. Honorable discharge and access to all vet benefits.

Why do you still continue to maintain your false position? Go read the damn thing. It ain't that hard.

I have read it. But you can quote it, if repayments aren’t required.

Hint: it’s not in Sec 716, where it would be. Keep making up stuff.

It's not in 716 you moron.

You didn't read it did you?

The Democrats added it to the final NDAA BTW

1)Honarable

2)Full vet benefits

3)No paybacks

Stop making a fool of yourself.

If what you say is true, post it here. Cut and paste from the relevant section and post it here. I'd like to see it. Because I've been over the NDAA since 8 months ago to now and that thing to which you speak is not in the version that passed on Wednesday.

there might be some other existing contractual payback in place for a voluntary separation (see the ACP for example) but NOTHING in the NDAA passed on Wednesday is mandating troops payback as a result of being separated for not taking the jab. That is and has always been my point that you seem to not understand.

Yes, nothing is in the NDAA saying service members have to payback their commitment. I never said there was. What I said is there is no language in there preventing the services from a requirement to do so.

You and I agree on most things politically, but people not having to fulfill their obligation as a result of disobeying a direct order is not one of them.

1. An unwise order.
2. An unwise quick fix hastily inserted in must-pass legislation.

There ain’t no heroes here.

Once a stupid order is given it MUST be enforced* - but you can’t avoid having to deal with the consequences of it BEING a stupid order.

*See, “Light Brigade, Charge of…”

I seriously doubt the services will let them keep bonuses, not a chance, and congress is not likely to give them that either.

I also doubt that congress will prevent them from having to repay things like officer scholarship commitments.

Scholarships and bonuses are very clear math... you get X money, you serve Y time and it might be dangerous.


I kind of doubt anyone will make them repay less-quantifiable obligations like flight school.

Well, the REAL money is in UPT. Scholarships don’t cost much. But even the scholarships and bonuses - it depends upon the original contract. The military is forcing these people out under honorable conditions. They are not voluntarily separating.

This is already a fuster cluck. Getting the JAG involved can very likely just make it worse. These were all issues that should have been considered from the get-go, not when those giving the orders were in denial about possible consequences and not at the last minute when an amendment was being tacked on to must-pass legislation. Not to mention what happens when the current congressional minority party comes back into the majority.

That being the case, I’m not at all sure the most rational rules are going to apply. They sure haven’t so far. We have had - what?- about 75 COVID active duty deaths in the military in the last two years? Everyone is clearly a tragedy for them and their family, but we lose a h€|| of a lot more to other diseases, to suicides, to accidents. We lose more than 35 a year in field exercises.

https://i.ibb.co/1qj9VYw/B5-F8052-A-...2-ED5-D419.jpg


I think the original order was ill advised.

I don't.

The mil would be crippled for routine operations and training if they had to go full lockdown and quarantine every time covid got loose on a ship, barracks, field exercise, etc.

The mil itself could gut through it, but politically and bureaucratically they CANNOT infect a bunch of mil and then let them loose to expose civilian family, GS, contractors, etc. The problem isn't the mil itself, it's keeping it away from demographics who DO have at risk people.

I think the majority of mil covid deaths were older reservists.

Except the vaccines do not stop you from getting it or spreading it. So in the end, you get that possibility anyway. And the civilian families, GS workers, contractors, etc., ALL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO BE VACCINATED THEMSELVES. And to be infected by the thirty-three % of the civilian world that isn’t vaccinated. And especially now, when we know that breakthrough infections are common, everything you are concerned about is going to happen anyway.

I am NOT antivax, and my active duty days are way behind me, so it isn’t my ox being gored, but this was a stupid situation to put the military in. Case-fatality rate for active duty infections was about 60 out of 300,000 IDENTIFIED cases (and you know damn well there were a lot so asymptomatic they were just missed. That’s one out of 5000 over two years of being at risk. This was never a threat to mission accomplishment, unless some panicky skipper panicked. If we have a senior leadership that is going to panic at a one in 5000 casualty rate we have bigger problems than COVID.

The US Navy skippers used to be made of sterner stuff:

https://www.navsource.org/archives/0...es/taffy3m.htm

Indeed. At least most of those I have seen in the military press seemed to fit that demographic.

More than 100 Marines Discharged
 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...e-dis-rcna9114

-103 Marines discharged for refusing the vaccine.

-Army has reprimanded more than 2,700 soldiers and will begin discharge proceedings in January

-about 4800 Army & Air Force have flatly refused the vax without seeking an exemption

-Marine Corps is in last place with 95% that have at least one dose. 97.5% for Air/Space Force and 98.4% of Navy is fully vaxed.

-West Point Cadets who don't get the vax or exemption will not be commissioned.

Not surprising that the Navy has the highest % with the vax. Close quarters, virus can spread like wildfire. Also not surprising that the Marines are in last place, in my memory they have always been the most conservative service.

The most stupid thing in this whole situation is the idea that we need a full lockdown and quarantine for a bug that, especially for this demographic, has an IFR well below .5%.

Close second is that (as others have said) we think somehow vaccination stops spread and all of this from happening.

HINT: it never was and never has been about the "virus"

Merely a conveyor to a social credit system. For example the proliferation of "vaccine passports" in certain commie states and cities. They are easing the serfs into it slowly and methodically.

That is all.

It doesn't stop spread from variants but so far greatly reduces risk of severe disease. If that fails, then they'll need a modified vaccine, unless everyone has natural immunity by then.

Yeah, but in terms of the active duty force, the risk was low to begin with. Incidence of death due to COVID in active duty force far less than incidence of death due to suicide, MVAs, other diseases, etc.

The senior leadership blew this call.

Like I said, it wasn't about the health of most mil members, it was about operational disruption caused by protecting non-mil people from the large numbers of mil who would invariably get covid in close-quarters working environments.

Even lower in kids

But here we are

Common sense and science has been cast aside for the cult of covidism

We are going to see another cathartic event on order of WW2

Its the only way we get out of these spirals

Who will invariably get Covid in close quarters ANYWAY since immunization is NOT stopping military members ( or those non-mil people) from having breakthrough infections the majority of which will be asymptomatic (although still contagious) anyway. And as I said, the non-mil people all had the opportunity to avail themselves of immunizations if they wanted to (not that THAT was going to keep them from having breakthrough infections in any event either).

Rick, this was a bad call, and while I recognize your obligation as a military commander to support your chain of command, you can’t do so blindly. You can make the case that they MIGHT have been right, but after the fact - especially after Omicron - no one can objectively say that this has somehow benefitted either the military or those they work with.

THIS WAS A BAD CALL that cost the military far more than it benefitted the military. And yeah, it’s a sunk expense, once the (STUPID) order was given the cost to military discipline of not enforcing the order exceeded the cost of going through with that order, but even that got hamstrung by the NDAA restrictions and if it gets reversed in the next Congress that’ll undermine discipline still more. At this point all we can do is learn from the mistake, but that won’t happen if we stubbornly refuse to acknowledge that it WAS a mistake.

Vaccination if nothing else reduces cases and then nobody can say the mil didn't take every available measure (short of permanent, sustained lock-down of all operational forces)

I do not have to blindly support anything on an anonymous board.

It was the obvious call, vaccination is part of military service. The'ye mandating it for little school kids but our active duty heros are too chicken to roll up their sleeves??? GMAFB.

73 million people under the age of 18 in the US.

665 total Covid deaths in that demographic since Jan 2020.

The push to vaccinate children for Covid is relentless.

OTOH, the current administration isn't looking so good having far, far more deaths from Covid under their handling of it...and they had the vaccine. Very important to be seen "doing something". (We must do something, "X" is something, we must do "X", etc.)

You learned nothing did you? This jab is NOTHING compared to the vaccines we took. Totally not comparable. So you telling us you had to go back and get a measles booster every 6 months? A typhoid booster every 3 months, a yellow fever every year? a small pox every 4 months? That is what this "vaccine" is Rick. Got a spoiler for you - it is not a vaccine in any sense of the medical term (we know this because they had to change the definition to comport its abject failure).

You're happy they mandate for kids? Really? The section of the population - behind the service members - that are in the age groups LEAST affected by this cold bug.

Austin made a huge mistake mandating this experimental jab. He did it out of political convenience - he wanted to keep his job and all its perks (SPAR flights are a good drug - they are drunk on the power). The service members are not getting comiranty are they? No they are not. Ergo EUA. Means Austin and his chain are in some deep doo-doo and they know it. no turning back for them, it is Thelma and Louise over the cliff now.


I deal with thousands of complaints from active duty, guard and reserve members that are experiencing side effects from the jabs. This is a vital national security issue that is being swept under the rug so we don't make the regime look bad.

You need help.

Great response

Come to be expected from you

Alright, lets' hear your side of it then.

What vexes you about the post?

You're putting words in my mouth. I said no such thing.

We'll just have to disagree on the rest.


BS. After many decades in the mil, I'd have heard about that if there was a grain of truth.

Military is apparently granting essentially zero religious exemptions. I think there should be at least a tiny handful since I do know there are people who have had exemptions for other vaccines since day one. I'm not sympathetic to anyone who happily got all of their previous mil vaccines and then suddenly developed a "religious conviction" over this one.


https://www.newsnationnow.com/health...-unattainable/

You don’t believe in religious conversions? ;)

what’s that old saying about no atheists in a foxhole under fire?

My NOSC.. 700ish waiver requests (med, religious, other)

ZERO approved.

Yes, there are many that are "f this because talking head/personality X said no jab"

There are many of us that after Anthrax just didn't trust them with something with limited real world data.

Then you had me and at least two other guys I know with documented adverse reactions, that had been waived from Anthrax, Flu, etc for YEARS.
And those waivers were basically ONE doc going "yeah, dude X doesnt' get shot X, Y and Z, and if he gets A B or C, he's in the clininc for monitoring, immediate epi pen loaded and ready, etc".
4 NAVY docs plus 2 CIV docs all said "CX doesnt get the Covid shot in any form due to conditions X Y Z"

Overruled.

IT's political. And there will be troops that suffer career wise, or die / permanent harm because nobody will approve a waiver.

Agreed. I missed the nuance. Apologies.

CX500T.

Seriously, appeal to a board for the correction of military records to have your retirement categorized as a medical retirement since you were judged medically unfit to serve..

https://www.archives.gov/personnel-r...litary-records