i get what you are saying but at the same time a lot of these guys who point out all that they have sacrificed act like none of the rest of us have sacrificed anything.

by used do you mean hired to consult? because we haven't had them sitting at the negotiating table and thats what many are asking for.

I am aware of that Sailing. Many pilots when speaking of professional negotiators, are talking about other than ALPA employees and eliminating the pilot negotiators altogether. (Not me)

That is what I was referencing.

There is no negotiating table in the traditional sense. Negotiations are done via term sheets in a very methodical process. Term sheets are exchanged and costed out by each side and counters made via additional term sheets. Discussions at the table focus mostly on questions that arise about specific items that are not clear to one side or the other from the term sheets.

The flip side is don't release the results and those on the "losing" side will question ALPA's integrity and motives. I think trust among the union membership is more important than tipping our hand in negotiations. People live in their own echo chamber. The pilots who think they want a DB probably think a majority of the pilots agree with them, and the same can also be said for those who do not want a DB. Just release the results and end the debate so we can proceed with a unified goal.

They could probably get away with putting out some broad generalizations about the data but I still wouldn't want them putting out a lot of specific data.

I don't dispute that. The problem I'm concerned with here is that we may be putting a pie in the window for everyone to sniff that ends up being a pie in the sky fantasy if the slice we all get is way smaller then expected. DB plans are very tempting, and top heavy "best year" FAE plans are irresistibly intoxicating narcotics. Which is why they won't be attainable in the real world. Yet if we chase our tails on this we'll end up in a flat spin below the hard deck while management swirl their snifters of Louis XIII in high backed leather chairs chortling at their good fortune from our unforced error as they send themselves mocking "Art of War" memes at our expense.

I think everyone would be in favor of retirement increases and most would be receptive to possibly adding another type of plan option. But the big risk in all this is the potential for division it could quickly escalate to if it gets into the realm of emotion based unsustainable or unattainable economics. If that happens, even if our proposal(s) are in the "zone of reasonableness" [aka reality] we may have already driven wedges of false hope by that point. Then all the company has to do is say "you won't be getting that, but we can maybe entertain a small fraction of that for a huge scope/work rule sale..."

I think what us "young guys" find out on the line or here in the forums is a tit-for-tat type argument. My scenario was worse than yours, no mine was, no mine was, and you have a couple of people fighting like children.

In the regional world, we saw our CEO's making millions of dollars during the worst recession in our Country's history. Meanwhile, they were telling us we had to keep cutting costs to make ourselves more competitive, or else we'd lose our flying. We were nothing more than contractors. Hell, the regional world is still the same today as it was back then. The only difference is they have to pay the pilots because of simple supply/demand. There aren't a lot of young whippersnappers at Riddle/UND/Purdue who want to be pilots, because the idea of making very little money while paying back an asinine amount of student loans is not appealing. Why would it be?

My point with this diatribe is this: pretty much every pilot here at Mother D has made a sacrifice somewhere along the way. Regardless of your sacrifice, whatever cross you choose to bear, I think we could all do better to not belittle each other. Let's come together to get the contract we deserve.

Well said, it hasn't been an easy ride for most and infighting won't help us achieve our goals. Upward we go.

[QUOTE=sailingfun;2666245]Americans plans were reasonably funded and in no danger of termination. Delta’s plan had 5 billion in assets and 1 billion in funds. This was driven by the massive increases in FAE. Prior to 99 most FAE’s were around 180 to 200K. With the huge spike in GS’s and the 01 contract FAE’s soared to 360 to 400k. Add in a crashing market, lump sum payouts from early outs boosted by falling interest rates and a well funded plan dropped to 20%.

American plans in no danger? See:
https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/01/b...-airlines.html

As to our plan, it is bit much to blame C2K rates as the primary factor. The early retirements (yes I get the impact of the rates on the associated lump sums) with the market brought it to a crisis. In hind sight, lump sums should have only been available when the plan was high funding rate (would have been easy to do when the lump sum was first negotiated: the 1990 contract).

While we will probably not completely agree on the above, the discussion is an example of the perils in some forms of deferred compensation.

In 2006 I was very unpleasantly surprised when many of the same conversations where occurring: senior pilots wanting their pension protected and junior pilots wanting scope/job protections and the inevitable clash when emotions got charged. When I heard guys arguing I would try to steer the discussion back to “we have to be in this together”.

I voted no on Letter 51 for both the pension and scope. I was in the minority. Today RJ scope is much better and my pension is what it is. I’m not going to ask for a pension restoration that gives my seniority group a disproportionate share of future contractual gains.

However, I will fly as long the government says I can and my health holds. I like the cash, my PBGC benefit goes up every year I delay taking it, and I like the job. But mostly, since my PBGC benefit is what it is, I like the cash.

I am all for any contractual improvements that benefit all seniority groups.

Here's my view/analogy. I think we are like brothers and sisters. We can argue amongst ourselves all day long and it might even get heated but when an outsider tries to butt in and **** with my family woe be to them...

We may argue amongst ourselves but I firmly believe we will unite when management tries to **** us........and we know they will try.

Denny

I just have one question...what are the ponies for? I get the strippers, but ponies? :D

Lady Godiva reference?

A la Tijuana Mexico

1hr of pay for SC assignment. Example. If you get 77 hrs of pay for reserve and CS gives you 3 SC assignment. You get 80 hrs of pay. You still get paid if CS gives you a trip while on SC. SC assignment gives you 1 hr of pay over the reserve guarantee.

We get 3 company paid hotels for SC or line holders a month. If you need a airport hotel 3 times a month, you are on the company dime.

Vacation: keep what we got, we get trip touching. If not, we get a extra week.

I agree with this.

Why not just get paid more?

Small items like this could be tax free items. Add them all up and it makes a difference. To get an extra $300/mo after tax you need something like $3.50-4.00/hr increase.

I wouldn’t make this a high priority item but these smaller items could have an impact if we get creative. Allow guys to bank unused hotel rooms (figure a standard rate for credit) and non-commuters could accumulate something for vacation.

In short, it could/should be both a pay raise and attacking some more creative ways to pocket pwa value.

As others have noted these types of compensation are also less visible to outsiders which might help decouple us from negotiating for all employee groups as well.

To caveat all of the above, I lean more towards picking our few high priority items to address with fervor rather than opening with 300+ items (and the associated longer negotiating cycle).

This is a place where I’d like to see improvement from our MEC. This “hardass” approach that we’ve taken has, for better or worse, resulted in fewer improvements outside of section 6. No LOAs of substance have been signed, allowing us to clear the chaff prior to openers. It remains to be seen if this will yield results, but so far they haven’t produced much of anything with their strategy.

Remember this as you vote in the LEC elections. I favor business minded leaders over emotional blowhards that have committed to NO already (looking specifically at Jimmy Johnson, and by extension his entire “ticket”).

i think we are well aware where you stand, but i do applaud you for talking up that 'jab' you took.

I live in base and have zero interest in company paid hotels. But pay above guarantee for short call (used or unused) would have me bid them so commuting reserves can stay at home on long call.

Objective evidence of mid contract improvements?

I’ve stated multiple times that I’m happy to be proven wrong (as I was with TA1->TA2). So far I’m still waiting to see the post Malone MEC perform.

Johnson was against TA2, after accidentally voting for it...he’s not going to move the rock up the hill.

Great job of only reading, comprehending, cutting and pasting what YOU want. Did you purposely cut out/omit the part where he said accumulate "nights" in a "bank" for non commuters....to be used for vacation? Are you only interested in improvements that you personally value? Hmmm. Interesting

I personally rue the idea of any reserve pilot getting more pay than a line holder.....talk about a paradigm shift....reserve more senior than a regular line? Hmmmm. Interesting indeed. But I guess you are for that one because it lines YOUR pocket?

Mid contract improvements? How about the union holding the company's feet to the fire for pwa violations? Or the fact they aren't caving in to these JV proposals. I'd call both of those pretty good.


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That and the email list of non C44 pilots he used to solicit input from are why I can’t bring myself to vote for him.

Eye of the beholder I guess. No argument that violations must be defended. PWA enforcement is paramount, otherwise the specific language doesn’t matter.

“Not caving” is not the same as achieving job protections, ie improvements. Otherwise described as items that are cleared out of the way, and won’t have to be addressed in Section 6.

Blame it on the company if you want. They certainly could have a JV LOA if they would bring a legitimate proposal. However our “leaders” have been unable to effectively engage them towards such a solution. This is indisputable.

I know, I know, you’re willing to wait as long as it takes to get the right deal...that’s great, and in principle I agree. The divide comes about when we start to question how the two sides might eventually come together.

Just because we enter negotiations doesn’t mean the company is going to “cave” on their end either. Some effective leadership, to include generating/using leverage will eventually be required from the union and the company. As will the ability to get to yes when it’s finally the time for the reps to make the (always) tough decision. Johnson has pre-committed to never get there. His platform is NO. That is not leadership, it’s juvenile, emotional, obstinance.

Like I said, it remains to be seen if this strategy bears fruit. So far I have seen no meaningful gains produced by this MEC.

Somebody **** in your cheerios this morning? I didn't cut and paste, I quoted a portion of someone's post, and you'll note I didn't erase his or her post so others can still read it - amazing!

I have no interest in hotels or Delta being part of my vacation planning calculus. Not sure why that bugs you so much? I don't use hotels; my family prefers Air BnB and VRBO. I'm supportive of his other SC idea and stated why. The broader support we have across the seniority list for certain proposals, the better IMHO.

Just so I know your rules for me in this thread and others... should I limit my posts to items I want improved for others that don't affect me?

Plenty of reserves make more than line holders, as I'd have figured you knew if you'reyou'reat Delta. ALV is average, and significant numbers of line holders are awarded and keep lines worth less than 72 and less than ALV-2. They often clean up on GS flying and generate well over 100 hours of credit. If you've looked at wide reports recently (and for all the years I've been with Delta), you'll also know that it isn't a paradigm shift since reserve was improved in recent contracts...plenty of senior pilots love reserve, and I know multiple junior line holders who are thrilled by that fact (since they'd be commuting to reserves otherwise).

Lastly, I'd like to confess I took (and keep) this job to line my pockets. Not to see the world or please the traveling public...but to earn income to support my family. I'm shocked you pegged me so well without actually knowing me!

Anything else you want to stomp your feet about?

Yea, they have the company shaking in their boots......

I was thinking the same thing. I completely support holding the company accountable for any infraction of the contract, but in the 20 months the current administration has been in office under the direction of the current MEC, I can’t point to a single consequence that has occurred other than us pulling VB and SIL which is also a consequence for some of the folks on our side of the equation. I also can’t point to any gain that has improved my working conditions or my compensation.

Jesus dude, drama queen much? I live in base and would never support negotiation coconuts getting thrown at hotels. Sc above reserve? Ya I guess, but I’d rather see stuff like all deadheads greater than 5 hours=business class. All deadheads less than 5 hours=Econ comfort aisle/window. Crew meals at 5hours, vacation, training, etc etc. oh, and a one click icrew for I’m sick/now I’m not sick.

His post was fine, you need to chill the &@$@ out

don't think anyone ever said the company was scared. It's just nice to see the union actually defending the PWA instead of giving in to every single company ask.

we already get domestic crew meals @ 5 hours. I don't really fly domestic anymore but I'd love to see United's DH and crew meal language. but yes absolutely please on the sick part.

Agree: the other space hero guy is a total drama queen, hotels outside layover hotels mean nothing, sc pay above guarantee is fine (cue SF to tell us how great reserve is compared to...), dh improvements great, 1-button sick/not sick a great idea, 5 hour vacation/training long overdue. Gotta jump off the cart at crew meals. Bleh, let the company keep them :)

Well gosh Ollie, thanks for the advice. You too, seem to have a reading comprehension problem. I neither support nor dismiss the item of hotels for short calls. I do have a problem with taking a suggestion, misrepresenting the item in it's totality, and then advocating for or against said recharacterization of said item. Capisce?

If we are going to discuss the merits(or lack thereof) of a proposal, let's at least be intellectually honest and not distort the proposal

I never bid reserve therefore, I don't really give a crap about reserve improvements, but I am willing to pursue said improvements if it helps a majority of pilots.....

I can think of a logical reason to be against almost any improvement if one only views that improvement though their eyes

ex...Increase pay rates across the board?...."Nahh, not for that. I'm going through a divorce and don't want my child support(alimony) to be predicated on a higher W2.

ex...Better health care coverage?...."Nahh, not for that. I got my Tricare(wife's insurance etc)

It just seems like every time someone proposes an " improvement" pilots are quick to shoot it down based on how it personally affects them.....

We would have never gotten rid of B scale if all pilots were so myopic as to say, " Doesn't affect me, I already paid my dues on that one". Sometimes we need to push for improvements regardless of personal gain, and support it because it's the right thing to do

Just my opinion, you are welcome to yours

Actually it's 5:30

*above* 5:30. So a 5:30 flight doesn't get them. Have to have that extra minute.

True. Excellent point, thanks.

We need United's crew meal language.

Being based in LA, the transcons very rarely block above 530. Sometimes coming back west from jfk you get it. It’s just a long time in the cockpit and I’m not a quartermaster type that carries rations for 10 days. Do I really care? Nope.
My bigguns (al bundy) are training & vacation pay, don’t touch my profit sharing, and stop giving away sick rules.
Oh and the 6 day trips that do the double Atlantic crossings that completely destroy your sense of sleep cycle and make you incredibly unsafe by the last day. They should pay a premium for how wrecked you get at the end

It blows my mind that people want to waste negotiating capital on free airline food. I just don’t get it.

Banked hotel nights would be a complete cluste**** unless we used only a single chain of hotels. Delta isn’t going to sit on tens of thousands of banked hotel nights (accounting liability item) and administer doling them out for the Hilton bora bora when you go on vacation. Commuter hotels, fine, talk about that. It’s a complete waste of time to chase the creation of some unwieldy hotel bureau.

Do you truly feel any different about your sick leave available to you than you did last contract, or the one prior to that? I don't. I don't call in sick when I'm not sick, and I don't hesitate for a nanosecond to call in sick if I feel a bit under the weather. Nothing in the contract has changed my perspective. I'm not seeing the outrage here.

Plenty of commuters love those trips. I'm guessing the bit above was just a vent, but how would you quantify "how wrecked you feel?" I always felt far more wrecked at the end of a domestic redeye than I ever did an international trip (disclaimer: I rarely flew the 6-days, but did fly the deep SA a lot). However, there are others that think the opposite. To each his/her own and all that.

Speaking of sick rules, AA has a sick if-needed provision for reserves that would be a nice benefit to add. Basically if you call in sick for a stretch of reserve days they only dock you a sick day if they actually would have called your number that day.