I don’t believe this look back “to the minute” and “having to verify next week” part is accurate when it comes to verification. Your verification requirement is determined on a bid period basis and the look back is for the 12 previous bid periods. If you entered a bid period with 99:59 for a look back, you would have no verification requirement for the entirety of that bid period, even if you called in sick multiple times. If you begin a bid period with a look back of 100:00 to 159:59 then you are QHCP and if you begin a bid period with a look back of 160:00 or greater you will require a Doctor’s note. If you use less than 50:00 in two consecutive sick leave years (June 1 - May 31) then you have no verification requirement for the entire new sick leave year no matter how much you use.

How much sick time does the average pilot use?

Of course they do, or they would have already instituted it. I find it sad that they just may be right. I don't mind calling and wasting schedulers time with my call...as long as I don't get put on hold for 5-10 minutes.

Does the union track sick leave? I wonder if DALPA could ping UAL MEC for their sick leave data. Might be able to get some info on if sick leave increased/decreased when they instituted their current way to call in sick (doesn't involve talking to anyone).

Of course you will take option B. That’s not the point being made. The point being made is you are being forced to go to the “doc in a box” to get paid when you may not need too.

Denny

Well, since small jet scope doesn’t affect me, I don’t think we should do anything about it, maybe give some more away. I never sit reserve so improvements to it don’t affect all pilots so no can do... Can you not see where you’re attitude is just plain wrong!?!

Denny

I believe you are wrong. If you enter a bid period, say this month, having used 99.59 hours you do not have to verify your next sick call. You call in sick for a 21 hour trip 3-6 sep and call in we’ll on the 7th. You are now over the 100 hr threshold. If you call in sick 21-24 sep,you will have to verify that trip by a QHCP to get paid for that trip. That’s my understanding. And yes they do keep track to the minute.

Denny

A few years ago I remember reading a number in the 60ish range from some newsletter/update/briefing/letter/article.

Clearly everyone has their personal priorities. Retirement is very important to some, insurance to others, retirement insurance to others, pay rates to some, QOL items to others... I was agreeing that gains in areas which benefit the most should be prioritized. Some areas of our contracts, or more specifically, where we spend negotiating capital to make gains in our contract are proving to be divisive. Now some pilots are actually talking about intentionally introducing concessions (scope sales) in an effort/threat harm certain segments of our group???:(

BTW, I can't remember the last I sat reserve. Definitely prebankruptcy. . I'd love to improve reserve rules as it benefits everyone. More senior guys bidding reserve is better for less senior line holders as well. I want to prioritize our capital in areas which help all. We all get a voice.

Denny, you are correct that it is displayed up to the minute. Based on reading NN 17-13, my impression is that your verification status is set for an entire bid period based on your usage for the 12 previous bid periods. Your example with a second sick call on 21-24 sep would not require verification. Assuming there aren’t enough hours to fall out of your 12 bid period look back, you would be on the hook for verification in October though. Take a look at that notepad and let me know what you think.

Admittedly, I have never had to verify as I have fallen under the less than 50 exclusion since this was implemented. I’m sure at some point it will snag me though and I want to make sure my understanding is accurate.

I just read the pertinent section of the PWA. There is no way to pre-emptively verify, that is: Verify for a sick call that is your first/second of the year or if your usage is on the low side.

We did away with this last contract, correct?

You are correct sir...

Correct.....

Actually yes they are...i’ve Flown with plenty of captains and other FOs that do exactly that.

Ok, well then I read it wrong. but it sure sounded like you don't want improvements to the HSA because it doesn't help everyone. My point was that there are going to be improvements that help some more than others. That is gonna happen.

You look at my example as a threat. It is not a threat. It was an example just like the reserve comment. If I get the chance to evaluate another contract for a vote, you can bet I will look at the WHOLE TA and not just one particular part.

You want to prioritize our capital in areas to help all. I want that.......and more.

Denny

Looks like the only thing we really disagree on is, I think you will have to verify that second sick call. you are already over 100 hrs when you call in sick. Even if it is in the same month and here is why. Section 14 F.2

Subject to Section 14 F. 6., a pilot who has used more than 100 but not more than 160 hours of sick leave in the 12 completed bid periods preceding the start of a sick occurrence, other than sick leave that has been verified under Section 14 F. 4., will be required to verify such occurrence within 21 days of its start by providing to his Chief Pilot or the Pilot Support Center either a QHCP certificate or a doctor’s certificate.

The above makes no mention of month. It does make mention of bid periods but that is in a look back capacity.

Denny

DALPA C19 Survey
 

I agree that we are on the same page except for the one part. I also think your quote of the language supports my case. The key word in the language is completed. A current bid period is never a part of the calculation under the language. I contend that if the 12 previous completed bid periods show 99:59 on day one of the month, they will still show 99:59 on the last day of the month even if you called in sick, because they are completed bid periods. What happens in the current bid period does not become part of the look back to trigger verification until the point that the current bid period becomes a completed bid period, ie you start the next bid period. I acknowledge that the iCrew display shows up to date usage, but the look back that triggers verification uses only the 12 previous completed bid periods.

Maybe someone on here has actually been in this situation and can clarify. Has anyone started a bid period with no verification requirement and had to verify something in that current bid period outside of a good faith basis?

Sad! Did you tell them to get some intestinal fortitude and stop coming to work and making others sick?

If the company is so bent on verification, not allowing early verification is something that has to die hard in the next contract.

How about let's fix that part of the contract? There will always be the weaker willed.

The 12 month look back is used to determine whether you need to verify in the current bid month. Example: I went over 100 hours March 2018. I am required to verify for any sick call with a QHCP. Every month since then, on the the first day of the bid period, I have to type in my DBMS password to acknowledge I must verify by QHCP if I call in sick.

This month 24hrs will drop off and I will be under 100 hrs and go off QHCP. If, in October I call in sick for a 25 hour trip 3-7 October (taking me back over 100 hrs) then call in well for a week then sick out over an 8 day 50 hour trip later in Oct., I will have to verify that 50 hour trip to get paid for it.

Your current month is still part of the 100 hours.

Denny

So when you start October and the 24 hours have dropped off the look back and as a result you no longer have a pop up to acknowledge with your DBMS password for the October bid period and your verification status for the October bid period is shown as NONE, if you call in sick for the first trip in your example your verification status for the October bid period is going to change in the middle of the bid period to QHCP and require you to verify the subsequent sick call in the October bid period ? The amount used in the 12 previous completed bid periods haven’t changed have they?

I may be completely wrong here, but I’m having a difficult time reconciling the examples provided here with the language itself and NN 17-13. I also recall a conversation during TA2 with one of the negotiators that left me with the impression that a verification status only changes bid period to bid period because the lookback that triggers it uses only completed bid periods. That’s why the second sick call in your example wouldn’t have a different verification requirement from the first one. That first sick call in October that takes your up to the minute iCrew display over 100 hours is not a part of a completed bid period. It’s gonna get you for November unless you have more dropping off the lookback than are coming into it, but your verification status for the current bid period should be the same all bid period long.

Unless you're talking a option to click a button or use the VRU to call in sick, then I agree. Otherwise, I think it keeps us from having to waste negotiating capital when we have much bigger issues to fix. I guess I just don't see it as such a big deal compared to many other issues, I would put this WAY down on the list of something I'd like too see "fixed." After improvements in Scope/JV, retirement, medical, reroute, rigs, reserve, DH, Pay banding, vacation, training, DH, recovery flying, rotation construction, paid parking, holiday pay, night pay, distance learning pay.

1-button icrew click should just happen, no negotiations. arcos is significantly more costly to implement and it just happened, well so should 1 button sick/well. hopefully it would be implemented just slightly better.

This is wrong. Only looks at previous 12 months. Current month won’t count until next month when a month drops off.

The point of ARCOS is to save the company money and improve operational integrity. I suspect the company views a one click sick option as having the opposite effect.

Just in case anyone doesn't know how calling in sick works presently, it's like this:

Pilot, in a normal voice:
"Hello, I'm calling in sick"

Scheduler, in a normal voice:
"What's your employee number?"

Pilot:
"123456"

Scheduler:
"Call us back when you're well"

Pilot:
"Thanks, goodbye"

I'd much rather have programmers work on 1-button GS On/Off toggle, myself.

I honestly can't see the company doing anything to benefit only the pilots without getting credit for it in negotiations. I've also heard that in anticipation of icrew's sunset, there will be no non-essential programming changes made to its functionality.

1. MICREW
2. Self book DH deviations
3. Online jumpseat listing
4. Airport sign in
5. Ipads
6. original DH deviation policy
7. Automatic listing to first class upgrade
8. ULC for MD11
A few items done without any Quid.

So you're telling me there's a chance!

I don't know the history of several of those, but it would seem that many benefit management or otherwise offload a workload or volume of complaints non-pilots would have had to process.

Making it easier to call in sick seems to run counter to everything the company prioritizes. I'd be shocked if they moved on this with no quid.

Except that's not how it works. You forgot the part where you can be on hold for 5 minutes under normal circumstances to 3+ hours during an IROP. I've also been transferred to speak to the duty pilot to explain why I can't fly my rotation. This from a pilot who has never used more than 40 hours in a year. The company pressures pilots to fly sick, it needs to end.

No, I don’t feel there is a chance. The company will feel this will cause a increase in sick calls.

Been here 32 years. Never had a sick call questioned or been transferred to the duty pilot. It’s not in his job description unless it was a sick enroute call. I hope you followed that up with the union. I am surprised you did not put a full report on here. I would simply have said I notified you I am sick. Good day!

Woah, that sounds scary...better just go to work. :rolleyes:

Agreed.

Also true. More often than not, I have been put on hold for 5+ minutes. Tested it once to see how long a wait might be...gave up after 20 minutes. Figured if they don't have time for me, then I don't have time for them. I'll just wait until they call me for a SC assignment and let them know I'm sick. Thankfully for us both, they never called.

My very first sick call 2 years ago I got the third degree from a scheduler.


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What was the third degree? What did a supervisor or the union say when you followed up on it. The schedulers know exactly how they are required to handle a sick call. If they have gone rogue they need to be counseled or removed.

Had a 10 am short call, had an 8 am Jumpseat booked. Woke up at 5 am feeling like death. checked my schedule, nothing. Checked daily trip coverage, nothing. So I called in sick. He said I had been assigned a trip (which mysteriously didnt show up on my schedule yet or daily trip coverage) and that I couldn’t call in sick. This went back and forth of me saying I have nothing assigned, I’m calling in sick for my short call, and then finally “i guess that means I’m calling in sick for that trip then because it doesnt change the fact I’m sick”. I met all the PWA requirements and i had been on property 11 months and it was my very first sick call. Didnt raise a stir with scheduling since I was still on probation. It was 100% pilot pressuring.

The next time i called in sick about 6 months later was a much better experience with just “okay call us when you are well”

Two things, being assigned a trip has nothing to do with calling in sick and regardless I would have simply asked him for the rotation number and a transfer to a supervisor. You can call in sick in the lounge 30 minutes before departure after sign in if you are sick.

And that was exactly my argument. I think he was just trying to push me since I was on probation and they knew I couldn’t do much. He finally grumbled and gave me the call us when you are well.


The second one, ironically experienced that as a paying passenger a few months ago with my wife on our anniversary trip. Captain got some food poisoning or something and called in sick after sign in on the first leg after we had already boarded.

Fair enough. I've never had to wait when calling in sick and never talked to anyone but scheduling myself.

I suppose if I'm on hold for more than 5 minutes in the future I'll just hit Pilot Assist with a message on the ipad that I'm sick, and screen capture it with a time stamp. I'm not paid to sit on hold for 3 hours, and won't.

Exactly how it should be handled.

I’ve never been questioned for calling in sick. Can’t say the same for calling in fatigued or unfit to fly.