Yep, go to any review site, youtube video, flyertalk, etc. Delta's employees are its advantage in the market.

Sure we the employees are a notable, distinct positive, for many reasons. But we have a network department as brilliant as earlier generations at DAL were idiotic.

Let me put it this way. If UAL mgmt was kidnapped and put in charge of DAL circa 2008, we would likely still be successful, but do you think this successful? I don't.

Yes, because neither UAL or AA bought a useless refinery, nor did AA lose billions on hedges. The frontline customer service employees at Delta choose not to unionize because they believe it creates more value to the company. That is an incredible gift to management.

And yet AA employees bemoan the fact that their PS is a far smaller percentage than ours....

Our employees choose not to unionize for various reasons, good and bad. I really don't think that "creating more value to the company" is one of them--more like "we don't want to pay union dues."

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I think our current management is very good, and noticeably better than the competition, and that is reflected in our numbers. We get a revenue premium compared to our competition. 15 years ago we had a revenue deficit--with the same non-union force--but a worse management and network team.

As for the refinery purchase, I don't really know enough. For every smug "it was a disaster" proclamation (as if anyone posting on this forum really has a clue) you can find another that will claim it was a big success. My personal gut feeling is that mgmt would not do it again if they had a magic time machine, and that it has been more trouble than any benefit it might have provided. That said, it was a "noble failure." At least for once, our leadership didn't just repeat the same tired old decades-long complaint of "gee we sure hope that the price of oil stays low--it's the difference between smashing success and bankruptcy."

Will we have the same management in 15, 20, x years? Most likely not. That is why it is important for those new here to realize that fortunes fluctuate over time. Your fortunes are tied to individuals and events beyond your control. Invest, spend carefully, and don’t be surprised if things go sideways at some point.

Was the refinery a mistake? From what I’ve read, running an independent refinery is difficult if its not part of the supply chain. We may want to buy some oil fields too. :)

Great points all.

I give Richard and the team in place at the time a lot of credit as well. For once, we just didn't sit back and take it. I think it (a) showed the JET-A producers that we can affect the crack price, we're just not going to take it... and (b) showed some imaginative solutions to an airline's costs.

Maybe the refinery made money, maybe on paper it didn't. Maybe it lowered the price of Jet-A, maybe not. But they tried and I'll give them credit for it.

useless? Seriously?

And that is a bad thing? (From a business standpoint)

I never said it was a bad thing, nor did I say Delta management is bad. I said it was an insult for management to reward itself with buybacks, when the employees were the reason for their success.