FDP extension email from mgmt
 

Did anyone read the email from Patrick Burns stating that Delta has one of the best systems to deal with FDP extension denials. He said some other airlines take vacation away from pilots for calling fatigued. He also said some take sick pay away..Does anyone know of any other major airlines that do this? I personally think Delta had a terrible way to deal with FDP extensions. They assumed you would extend when the FDP reg was set up being just the opposite.

They should look at Republics system. Each fatigue call is seemed either operational or personal. Even the personal ones are pay protected and never used to deciplined or add to occurences. You could call in fatigued and say you were up late played video games and rocking out to Mily Cyrus and you would still be pay protected.

Out of the 3 airlines I have worked for DAL is definitely the worst about 117.

Delta is the best at everything they do. Just let them tell you how great we are.

This fatigue system we have here is far worse than the regional that I came from. But hey, my “last job” also gave me a pin code and we e-signed the release on the ACARS with our own unique PIN.

When Delta incorporates this technology in 2035 it will be “industry leading innovation.”

But yeah, our fatigue system here is not up to par.

Third airline here as well... Delta is by far the worst with 117.

Pat Burns is either dillusional or ill informed.

I think far too many people who primarily work between 8L/26R and Virginia Ave in Atlanta think Delta is the the best company ever. If all one sees are the metrics (statistics, which are a type of lie), feel-good posters/memes in the hallways, and self-championing articles on DeltaNet everyday, can you really blame one for having that mindset?
Those people don’t see how effed-up it can be on the line on a daily basis. Those of us who do see it are amazed it all does come together more often than not, and sometimes even in spite of itself.
The froggy side of me is inclined to fill out FCRs when I see the jacked up stuff on the line. But the sensible side of me usually prevails, because I know most FCRs—even the “request response” FCRs—just get ignored and the reporter runs the risk of getting labeled an antagonist.
To be fair, I have used the F word twice within the past 12 months, and both times the duty pilot was great and I was pay protected.
But I should have used the F word many more times before I did the first time. Lesson has been learned. We run at red line far too frequently. Don’t be afraid to take advantage of our “industry leading FRMS program,” or whatever it is called. Yeah, it is onerous, but it is better than the alternative.
Y’all be safe out there!

... and know the PWA. Referencing extensions for FRMS flights specifically, our PWA actually gives us way more protection (to include pay protection with NO QUESTIONS ASKED) than 117. Pay attention to the rotation limits and don't feel pressure to walk if they want to extend your duty longer than what is printed on your rotation as the PWA max. Too many folks don't know how that works and simply allow extension to FAR limits... and scheduling sure isn't going to tell you how quickly you run out of PWA-restricted extension. I don't know what price was paid during negotiations NOT to let us live simply under 117 for FRMS extensions, but I'm sure it was significant. And it's probably part of each FRMS package submitted by Delta. Delta gets it done because they've hired mission accomplishers (who wouldn't?), but please at least be aware of your PWA obligations. That 3-hour departure delay could easily get you paid for the trip prior to departure, and even net a hefty GS for a pilot covering you after you walk. Or maybe it's a GSWC because Delta made the business decision to run lean and they don't have a body to GS the delayed FRMS flight. Don't feel obligated to go outside the PWA to solve Delta's pickle... that you didn't create.

Classic groupthink. The fact that they were surprised the FAA didn't agree with their interpretation of FDP extension language is evidence.

Reference my comments above, it is interesting to look at the FRMS example given on page 11 of the bid packs. They specifically highlight the max FDP as 20:30. With the symbols showing that number on the rotation, they partially occlude the PWA max, which is way lower and the same as scheduled (16:46). If a delay drives the anticipated FDP to 19:00 (well under the stated 20:30 Max FDP or 22:30 with extension), that whole crew can walk... pay protected, and no paperwork required. Scheduling won't tell you that, but it's right in front of those who look.

Take your rest seriously. You're on the hook if you screw it up on the other end almost a full day later!

Yup...."Exception Two" to 12.D.1 is a nice tool for FRMS flights.

The FDP extension language needs to be strengthened, tightened, and expanded upon to reflect the intent of far 117. Had a scenario where on leg 4...we were facing a ground stop at KDCA in which duty day was becoming a factor. We were going to push...and ground stop issued. No update in sight. Deplane the aircraft. Fdp limit comes ( no acars message btw). We had called crew tracking to ensure they were following and they insisted we would be ok. Captain and I say we are good fatigue wise, but i had serious objections to the concept that at a major hub, we are almost expected to try and extend to take off into a busy airport that has ground stops, weather, and planned 4th of july tfrs because of the Capitol celebration.

I'm wondering why we have language that says refusal of FDP extension is only because of unfit or fatigue. In my opinion, the idea of extending to fly into known thunderstorms and possible holds or diverts is insanity. I decided to press...so we taxied out, and then was issued another ground stop with an ETA exceeding our max fdp. I immediately said I'm not doing it. We called and said we were returning to gate. Because of semantics, we didn't refuse an extension...but merely stated that we would exceed limits due to anticipated eta.

Absurd. I will not make the same mistake. There are some instances were extensions make sense. Outlying airfield and getting back is logistically smarter and there happens to be good weather. Crew tracking and dispatch kept praying and hoping we would get off on time so it wouldn't be their problem anymore.

Long story short, they should have been more proactive on getting a reserve crew, green slip, etc ready...and they ended up delaying the flight even more because they had to wait on a new crew. Some poor crew got rerouted to take our flight.

My objection to taking the fdp had nothing to do with fatigue (at the moment...although it was a LONG day) but rather that the idea of pushing it was borderline unsafe.

Your post is full of contradictions. On the one hand you say you had serious objections but decided you were ok to continue. Later you state it was insanity to continue but decided to go. At the serious objection point you should have shut it down. No idea why you went past the insanity point.

Don’t extend if you are fatigued. I learned a similar lesson a few years ago. We do not have the best system for this but our percentage is pretty near perfect when you fill out the paperwork. As I stated before, the FAA does not necessarily agree with delta’s practice, but will not get involved in labor disputes. This needs to be addressed in our contract. If we chose to not extend, it is our choice and we should be protected without paperwork. We will see if this is a priority over retirement.

Hard to explain the nuances and details in the post about the scenario in how it played out. I can see where it appears contradictory. To make it clear, the captain nor myself ever felt unsafe or fatigued. And it was legal on what the company was doing. My objection is along the lines that protocol on which they are operating is backwards and I'm ranting about it. It's putting crews in a potentially bad situation.

The planned flight by itself in a vacuum is just another flying leg during the stormy summer months.
Had that been the first flight of the day, it would have been a nonfactor. But at the end of the day, it is a different story.

In my opinion, the refusal of an extension should not be limited to an automatic implication of fatigue or being unfit to continue. How about the idea that it just isn't a good idea to try and have a crew rush against the fdp in order to fly into known thunderstorms, delays, ground stops, holding, and non fly zones? Why are we constructing lines that even flirt with the idea of having to do that? Out of Atlanta no less. Had I declined the extension, how would my reasoning be viewed upon when facing the Frb?

I can emphatically say that safety was the ultimate concern (not pay grievances). I have no doubt that a safety call is the right call..But the process of having to worry about explaining yourself to a cpo, and or worry about not being protected (pay, jobs whatever) can be slightly intimidating and it clouds judgment.

Soooooo you’re putting this issue of getting paid whether one extends or not (an issue where I believe over 95% already get paid) at a higher priority than current retirement issues? I’m thinking you need to re-evaluate your priorities.

Denny

Who is “they?”

Note to self: Do not expect “them” to be proactive in such dynamic go/no-go cases.

I think he's on to something. The hassle and unknown is a deterrent. I also think if we just adhered to the 117 intent as written and extensions were rare for extenuating circumstances, not daily storms in the southeast in the summer, things would be reliable and scientifically safe. Which is completely foreseeable because of the historical data on scheduled release from bid packets vs. actual release. There is a buffer that would allow a statistical reliability at what ever the acceptable level is. We use 99% statistical fuel, don't we?

Crap, nope I think retirement is much more important, along with scope, reroutes, soft pay (training, vacation), dead head issues, etc. over was supposed to be besides with a list, two hurricane toddlers is making me go crazy. This is prob in the teens for me. My comment posted prior to me finishing.

Fatigue is different than extending.

If it wasn't, there wouldn't be an extention option; it would only be the max 100% of the time with fatigue as needed.

The extention option should be a Y/N question at the appropriate time and if the answer is N, that's it. Go to rest, no report, no explanation, no review board, nothing.

Pretending its a fatigue issue is asinine. Fatigue at exactly -2 hrs would be a total and complete coinsidence and since fatigue requires a call out whenever it happens (at hour 1, hour 15 or anywhere in between) then the -2 extention threshold has nothing whatsoever to do with fatigue.

But the policy is currently that not extending requires a fatigue report. Which I believe is the actual sticking point to most pilots.

The fatigue report is so long and involved that it is it’s own deterrent, particularly to pilots, who as a group, are averse to paperwork.

I’m curious how often, whether consciously or unconsciously pilots extend and push the envelope in an attempt to avoid filling out that report/not make a situation when they can “muscle “ through.

Yes, the Patrick Burns email was a warning to pilots that if you refuse to extend that is a fatigue issue. It will result in a lot of paperwork, calling the duty pilot, talking to tracking, having the chief pilot call you, and an FCR report. This is all to intimidate pilots into not refusing an extension in my opinion. Also, he said other airlines take vacation time from pilots when calling in fatigued. Can anyone tell me one airline that does that? I doubt the FAA would go along with that either.

Huh. Only did it once. Think the paperwork took about five min. Could tell tracking was sad to hear me say no, but zero pressure or pushback from anyone.

Was a non event. Made the right call that much easier

That was a response to another poster. I never said it was, but that is the companies policy which is well known. As I stated before, I believe that if you choose not to extend their should be no re-course, no paper work, and does not matter the reason. You should be paid no matter what. The problem is, we don’t live in that world.

Refusing to extend may be an unfit for duty issue, not necessarily a fatigue issue. There is a difference. The minute you utter the "f" word, the operation stops and the goal is to get you into rest ASAP. Unfit for duty may lead the crew trackers to reroute you to a shorter leg/duty period.

The Chief Pilots' Office has been removed from the unfit for duty/fatigue call process. You should only be talking to Crew Tracking and the Duty Pilot.

American, United, Southwest, and, I believe, Jet Blue have policies in place to permit a pilot to be compensated for an unfit for duty/fatigue call not caused by their company. The pay adjustment may come from a sick bank or PTO. At this point, Delta does not have such an option.

Fortunately I've not had to do an extension yet in my few years at Delta, but I was frequently put in that position at my dirtbag regional. A few extensions I accepted, most I didn't. I never accepted one if the FO wasn't comfortable and 100% on board with it. There were a few instances where I accepted a 30 or 60 minute extension, but not the full two hours.

The ones I didn't accept weren't because I was fatigued at that moment, it was because I know my body and I knew that I was already starting the downward slide and that I would definitely become fatigued at some point during the extension. That wouldn't be safe and I wasn't going to be put in that situation.

Fwiw at jetblue if the CA does not accept an extension and the reason is fatigue, it is treated as a fatigue call (in accordance with the fatigue section of the CBA (PWA)), and the crew goes into rest immediately, a fatigue report is filled out, and it goes to the fatigue event review committee. If it goes into a day off, extended pairing segment pay is added to the DH back to base on that day with a min daily credit for that day. Fatigue calls are 100% paid out in instances where the operation caused the fatigue, and any issue where an extension (and associated refusal) exists generally meets this criteria. If for whatever reason the FERC deems it a personal fatigue issue and not an operational reason, PTO is used for the unflown segments (again not applicable for an extension refusal due to fatigue, as that is by definition operationally induced).

If a CA refuses an extension for any reason other than fatigue, he is pay protected, but may be required to DH on the flight if the flight still goes (can “deviate” and if a commuter self DH home at that point and still be paid). A weird part at JB is if the CA refuses an extension for other than fatigue, flight CXLs, goes into a day off to DH home the next day, CA will get pay protected for that canceled leg and for the subsequent DH home the next day, but won’t get extended pairing pay (premium) or any rigs for the added day to the pairing, to include min day guarantee (as he would if it were for fatigue). Meanwhile, the FO gets premium pay and all rigs if he goes into a day off for the same cancelation due to the CA refusing an extension (since it’s the CA’s refusal, not the FO’s).

Also at jetblue, an FCIR is required if an extension is refused for a reason other than fatigue. Easy enough to just type in “I didn’t want to,” or “safety” and be done with it, but an annoyance to do any paperwork nonetheless. An extension should be (and is by definition) an exception, not the norm, and an FCIR (flight crew irregularity report) should not be required for an extension refusal. It should be the other way around. Why should I fill out an irregularity report if I refuse to go beyond what the FAA determined was the limit of a duty day? That’s one area I hope JB (and I guess you guys too?) fixes in their next contract.

So jetblue potentially pays out (to the CA at least) a lot more if “fatigue” is used during an extension refusal. Also, if you don’t fatigue and just refuse the extension, you can get stuck waiting for a crew to get called out just to DH you back and get no additional pay (other than rigs for that pairing), whereas a fatigue call in the same scenario would have netted an immediate hotel and 5 hours at 150% (if into a day off) the next day. But, in no case would a JB pilot be docked pay for refusing an extension (though a CP may follow up the FCIR with a phone call and ask about it.)

Related to this discussion, and maybe this is possible in your negotiations, I think an extension should pay 2 hours pay credit on top of the rest of that pairing’s credit (I think UAL does this?). Saves the company money on a greenslip or burning a reserve, gets the flight out right then and not waiting on a reserve, saves on crew hotels if the flight cancels, crew would still get home that day and would get a little extra pay to go the extra mile, and of course if fatigue is an issue that option is always available...seems like a win-win and should be achievable without using much negotiating capital.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just throwing out what exists at blue for reference.

Thanks for the clarification. Makes more sense now!:)

Denny

You guys can make something hard that is really easy. If your fatigued call it in and go into crew rest. A good Captain will ask each pilot if they have a issue with continuing and let them know that if they do he will call the company and put the crew into rest without the other pilots name even being brought into the conversation.

Long ago I flew for a fractional operator, our max duty day was 14 hours and min layover was 10 hours. The pilots had the ability to extend, on their own, 30 minutes, anything over that you had to call your program manager and explain to them why you feel it was safe to go the full 16 hours.

It was really different when I got here and you have to explain why you can’t go.

CAs an FOs are rarely on the same LATT when the parings are split or a reserve or relief pilot is involved. More than once I've had to say, "sorry captain, I know this messes up your trip too be I'm not going to XYZ." It's great that the captain is encouraged to "take care of his/her crew" but this is on each individual. We are all adults and professionals entrusted to make the right safety decisions.

Sorry but this post reeks of unrealistic idealism.

If this is your idea of a good captain, you think only about 1 percent of our captains are good ones.

That last part changed when we went to the FRB process. I've only had to pull the plug once for Unfit for Duty since the current PWA process went into effect. I asked the FO how he was feeling about everything as a part of several conversations to ensure that he was good with what we were doing and wasn't already Unfit or Fatigued before I was. When I made the call to tracking and got transferred to the duty pilot for the "how much time do you need to be rested question", the duty pilot indicated that he was required to speak to each pilot individually. We both had to say we were Unfit and we both had to give a time when we would be rested. Definitely different than previously when we could make the call as a captain and get everyone put into rest and that was that.

This peeks my curiosity. Which part(s) are 99% of captain's not doing? Asking the other pilots for input on unfit/fatigue? Pulling the plug if one of the other pilots becomes unfit/fatigued? Or is it the last part about making the call and keeping the other pilot's names out if it I discussed above which I believe is impossible these days?

Might want to spend some time in dispatch getting to know exactly what a dispatcher does. I guarantee your dispatcher was neither praying nor hoping either way, it's a crew tracking function. Period. Might want to get to know what the only other represented work group on property actually does before you lump them in with "the Man". Trust me, you have a bigger ally in your dispatcher than you think you do.

Kind of like typing in English. You’ve been using it for what, 55-60 years, yet you can’t put together a single post using “an” instead of “a”. Or using “you’re” instead of “your”. Not to mention all the other ways you absolutely murder your mother tongue.

The normal duty day for domestic ops is 14 hours, right. If I’m unable to continue past that, why is it incumbent on me to fill out fatigue reports? I showed up rested and ready to work. If weather or maintenance, or a reroute cause me to have to work past 14 hours, if I feel good, I’ll do it. But having a punitive system in place where, if I can’t continue 2 hours past my (normal) max duty day, I’ve got to satisfy a bunch of company requirements to get paid? The company does this on purpose because the risk/reward, or pain/pleasure threshold is going to cause most of us to just suck it up and get the job done without making any waves.

It’s why they pushed so hard for the current sick call requirements. After a certain point, knowing that calling in sick will cost you a trip to the Dr., most guys will show up, just cause it’s easier than calling in sick.

Unfortunately, I’m convinced that our leadership doesn’t care if we are fit to fly or not. Whatever makes Delta the most money is what’s most important. If we cry mercy, they relent, but they make it as difficult as possible. If you’re a domestic pilot and you haven’t flown a trip in the last 5-6 months that absolutely kicked your rear end, you’re either really senior or you’re doing something else right. I’m seeing 8:15-8:30 block days regularly on a day or two of almost every trip I fly. We’ve always managed to keep the operation running safely, fatigued, exhausted, or not. We will continue to do so, because we are professionals, and it’s in our own best interest to continue to do so.

Apparently some of you guys just don’t have the “complete the mission” mindset. Turn in your backpacks.

I'm not sure I share your optimism. At some point, we're going to pay the piper. Hopefully it's no worse than bent metal, but you can't push thousands of pilots on sick/fatigue/nutrition/D0/extensions/ unwanted 91 hour PBS awards/ uncommutable trips/8:30 block NB 4-leg days... without some consequences. We're getting it done, but I'm not sure continuing to do everything as we are doing (and trending) is all in our own best interest.

Sure they can. They’ve done it at the regionals for 20 years.

First of all your max duty day is defined by the contract. You work under the FAR’s where the extension is legal. It was not that long ago that the FAR’s had no max duty day. Legal to start, legal to finish. If you will exceed your max duty day you don’t have to fill out anything or satisfy anything. You are done and will get paid 100% of the time.
If you want off your trip before your contractual max duty day you will be asked to fill one form out that takes two or three minutes. Oh the horror!
I have never had a job where if I asked off work early the boss did not ask why.