Profit Sharing Question from an AA guy
08-17-2019, 09:44 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by sailingfun
I would reread the contract. It’s very clear other employees share the pool.
Individual employee's annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned as a percentage of total annual compensation for that year for all employees eligible for (a) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan, or (b) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan for Ground and Flight Attendant Employees. The Association will have the right to review the methodology and calculation of awards prior to such awards.
Individual employee's annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned as a percentage of total annual compensation for that year for all employees eligible for (a) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan, or (b) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan for Ground and Flight Attendant Employees. The Association will have the right to review the methodology and calculation of awards prior to such awards.
My issue with the post is he/she is stating that pilots get a fixed % of the profit sharing pool, which is factually incorrect.
Last edited by DELTAFO; 08-17-2019 at 09:57 AM.
08-17-2019, 10:07 AM
#42
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Originally Posted by Hossharris
Reference the quote from the PWA a few posts ago:
“Pilot and non-pilot employees of the Company generally, except for employees eligible for the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan for Ground and Flight Attendant Employees, and management employees covered by incentive compensation plans”
The group referenced above (generally pilots) gets 10%/20% of PTIX.
I don’t know how I can make it more clear. The company can do whatever they want for profit sharing with other groups. Our slice of PTIX is defined in the PWA
“Pilot and non-pilot employees of the Company generally, except for employees eligible for the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan for Ground and Flight Attendant Employees, and management employees covered by incentive compensation plans”
The group referenced above (generally pilots) gets 10%/20% of PTIX.
I don’t know how I can make it more clear. The company can do whatever they want for profit sharing with other groups. Our slice of PTIX is defined in the PWA
That defines who is covered by our contractual pool formula. If you keep reading you with find under “Basis of Individual Award”
Individual employee’s annual compensation in the year in which the PTIX was earned as a percentage of total annual compensation for that year for all eligible employees.employees eligible for (a) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan, or (b) the Delta Air Lines, Inc. Annual Profit Sharing Plan for Ground and Flight Attendant Employees. The Association will have the right to review the methodology and calculation of awards prior to such awards.
If their wages go up, everyone’s percentage goes down (or the other way around).
08-17-2019, 10:12 AM
#43
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Originally Posted by Hossharris
I don’t know how I can make it more clear. The company can do whatever they want for profit sharing with other groups. Our slice of PTIX is defined in the PWA
As I read this again we may be talking past each other a bit. The calculation of the pool is fixed as you say, but we don’t get the whole pool. As pilots we get our share of of the pool as determined by what percentage of total wages we have, and that changes based on many factors including how much money the ground and flight attendants make.
08-17-2019, 10:20 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by bugman61
Ok, I’ll bite. Let’s use last year’s numbers. Last year PTIX was 6.7B resulting in a pool of 1.1B. The total wages for all eligible employees were 7.8B. 1.1/7.8 give you the 14.1% payout. What I am saying is that if the flight attendants received a raise and eligible wages went to 8.8B, with the same 1.1B pool the percentage would go down to 12.5%.
Again as I said in the other post, find me a current reference that says what you claim. It’s not there because the plan doesn’t work how you think it does.
Again as I said in the other post, find me a current reference that says what you claim. It’s not there because the plan doesn’t work how you think it does.
PTIX is pre tax income.
Income is not revenue, it includes the wages of employee groups.
If revenue stays exactly the same and all PTIX subtraction lines stay the same except wages for FAs goes up, then profit sharing will go down.
There are guys arguing that point, i am not, though i misunderstood your post and got the opposite gist of what you were saying. In a vaccume, if FA wages go up, profits would go down, but they havent got the wage increase yet and probably wont this year so it'll be the year after we would see any of that.
08-17-2019, 10:29 AM
#45
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Originally Posted by bugman61
As I read this again we may be talking past each other a bit. The calculation of the pool is fixed as you say, but we don’t get the whole pool. As pilots we get our share of of the pool as determined by what percentage of total wages we have, and that changes based on many factors including how much money the ground and flight attendants make.
08-17-2019, 10:32 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by theUpsideDown
Im another guy not the guy tlaking about 2 pools, i confused you similarly as being with another poster's pov as having 2 or something pools.
PTIX is pre tax income.
Income is not revenue, it includes the wages of employee groups.
If revenue stays exactly the same and all PTIX subtraction lines stay the same except wages for FAs goes up, then profit sharing will go down.
There are guys arguing that point, i am not, though i misunderstood your post and got the opposite gist of what you were saying. In a vaccume, if FA wages go up, profits would go down, but they havent got the wage increase yet and probably wont this year so it'll be the year after we would see any of that.
PTIX is pre tax income.
Income is not revenue, it includes the wages of employee groups.
If revenue stays exactly the same and all PTIX subtraction lines stay the same except wages for FAs goes up, then profit sharing will go down.
There are guys arguing that point, i am not, though i misunderstood your post and got the opposite gist of what you were saying. In a vaccume, if FA wages go up, profits would go down, but they havent got the wage increase yet and probably wont this year so it'll be the year after we would see any of that.
Sometimes it’s hard to keep who is arguing what straight, glad we agree.
I’m also saying that it goes further than just the effect of raising fa wages on profits. If fa wages go up, and ptix happens to stay the same, the percentage still goes down.
08-17-2019, 12:31 PM
#48
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Originally Posted by DELTAFO
Please post a reference to the PWA or a link to the side letter that states pilots will receive approximately 1/3 (33%) of the profit sharing pool.
My issue with the post is he/she is stating that pilots get a fixed % of the profit sharing pool, which is factually incorrect.
My issue with the post is he/she is stating that pilots get a fixed % of the profit sharing pool, which is factually incorrect.
08-17-2019, 03:36 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by theUpsideDown
Honestly i thought you were arguing against hossharris post and i didnt help when i jumped in there.
I actually am disagreeing with him and others who say our ps % is not affected by the wages of the other groups. It’s right in the contract under basis of individual award where it references the wages of the ground and flight attendant ps program. Take last years numbers for example again, ptix was 6.7b resulting in a pool of 1.1b using the 10%/20% calculation. That’s 1.1b to ALL ps participants, not 1.1b to pilots. Our share of that 1.1b was proportional to our total eligible wages vs other groups eligible wages. If they made more and the 1.1b was the same then our share would be smaller. We may just be talking about two different things- there’s nothing they can do to other groups to change our 10%/20%, but we still only get a proportional share of that money.
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08-17-2019, 03:52 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by bugman61
there’s nothing they can do to other groups to change our 10%/20%, but we still only get a proportional share of that money.
The only thing that would change our 10/20 is if non-con wages changed the PTIX earnings number. After PTIX is determined, non-con PS doesn’t affect our PS. The pilot payout entry in the 3.I table remains unchanged
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