Section 6 thoughts
10-19-2019, 06:45 PM
#1
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Section 6 thoughts
Guys,
Since we are in section 6 negotiations, I wanted to start a thread discussing some of the issues that come up every section 6.
What are you willing to give up for that? Nothing. The company had no problem reducing costs quickly and at huge levels when it behooved them. BK is long gone and we should bargain for and expect our costs to increase. The company will put out the usual memo about keeping costs increases down - that is their job. Our job is to increase our compensation.
Think pattern bargaining. Hopefully UAL will set the stage. This does not mean that every part of our PWA will lead the industry - it certainly will not, but with our current level of profitability we should be in the top tier in most sections and should not lag in any. Vacation and DH quickly come to mind. I am sure that there are others.
PS should not be touched. If anyone says we should trade PS for pay-rates or anything else, please enlighten them to the numerous reasons that this this is a fools errand. Due to pattern bargaining pay rates will normalize. Trading PS for payrates is just giving away PS over time.
Speaking of payrates I hear plenty of folks lament our rates as industry standard. That’s fine but when we set them they were industry leading. UAL and AMR matched us so we could have gotten 10% more and it would still be industry standard if other airlines match us.
Plenty of folks will claim an automatic “No” vote ready to go for certain issues. While I have no problem with that since many of the 14K Pilots will have different priorities I prefer to look at the contract as a whole. Make no mistake the value of our PWA will go up, costs for DAL will go up - other than the airline industry this is called a raise. We are due for a raise.
If I could stress one point it would be that every PWA gain does not have to be “paid” for by other PWA concessions. Yes, this is a negotiation so we will have to negotiate, and the company will have their wants but in total we should be aiming for big overall gains.
Scoop
Since we are in section 6 negotiations, I wanted to start a thread discussing some of the issues that come up every section 6.
What are you willing to give up for that? Nothing. The company had no problem reducing costs quickly and at huge levels when it behooved them. BK is long gone and we should bargain for and expect our costs to increase. The company will put out the usual memo about keeping costs increases down - that is their job. Our job is to increase our compensation.
Think pattern bargaining. Hopefully UAL will set the stage. This does not mean that every part of our PWA will lead the industry - it certainly will not, but with our current level of profitability we should be in the top tier in most sections and should not lag in any. Vacation and DH quickly come to mind. I am sure that there are others.
PS should not be touched. If anyone says we should trade PS for pay-rates or anything else, please enlighten them to the numerous reasons that this this is a fools errand. Due to pattern bargaining pay rates will normalize. Trading PS for payrates is just giving away PS over time.
Speaking of payrates I hear plenty of folks lament our rates as industry standard. That’s fine but when we set them they were industry leading. UAL and AMR matched us so we could have gotten 10% more and it would still be industry standard if other airlines match us.
Plenty of folks will claim an automatic “No” vote ready to go for certain issues. While I have no problem with that since many of the 14K Pilots will have different priorities I prefer to look at the contract as a whole. Make no mistake the value of our PWA will go up, costs for DAL will go up - other than the airline industry this is called a raise. We are due for a raise.
If I could stress one point it would be that every PWA gain does not have to be “paid” for by other PWA concessions. Yes, this is a negotiation so we will have to negotiate, and the company will have their wants but in total we should be aiming for big overall gains.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 10-19-2019 at 07:43 PM.
10-20-2019, 03:01 AM
#2
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: 767 Capt.
Posts: 64
Section 6
Ed Bastion is a very smart businessman. He will not spend a dime he doesn’t have to. He’s extremely firm on this. ALPA, on the other hand, bends quite easily as demonstrated by the gutting of our retirement, thus rendering this an unsurvivable career choice by all Deadzoners and a severely reduced prospect for future generations.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
10-20-2019, 03:14 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Taildragger1
Ed Bastion is a very smart businessman. He will not spend a dime he doesn’t have to. He’s extremely firm on this. ALPA, on the other hand, bends quite easily as demonstrated by the gutting of our retirement, thus rendering this an unsurvivable career choice by all Deadzoners and a severely reduced prospect for future generations.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
10-20-2019, 03:33 AM
#4
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Position: 767 Capt.
Posts: 64
Hi Tim,
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
10-20-2019, 05:52 AM
#5
Banned
Joined APC: May 2018
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by Taildragger1
Hi Tim,
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
Mid 30’s here with just over $340,000 in my 401k. I think I’ll be OK all things equal. I aggressively saved in my 20’s and I have been at Delta for my 30’s socking away on average about $40,000+ for the last few years.
Granted I was buying a lot during the recession and have enjoyed some pretty solid gains during that time (50% S&P/50% blue chip growth funds)..... the power of dividends does not go unnoticed. DL’s 16% + my own contributions have been noticeable as well. MY concern is the government finding different ways to spread the wealth as I get closer to my retirement.
If you work at Delta, live in a paid off $89,000 house, and can’t survive in retirement.... there are deeper issues. I just bought my first rental property a couple of years ago for $74,000, fixed it up, rent it, and it’s almost paid off with aggressive payments.
We need to meet or exceed our peers in many QOL items (vacation, training, etc.). The OP had a great post.
10-20-2019, 06:02 AM
#6
Super Moderator
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by Taildragger1
Ed Bastion is a very smart businessman. He will not spend a dime he doesn’t have to. He’s extremely firm on this. ALPA, on the other hand, bends quite easily as demonstrated by the gutting of our retirement, thus rendering this an unsurvivable career choice by all Deadzoners and a severely reduced prospect for future generations.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
Unless the pilot group is educated...SERIOUSLY EDUCATED, on the workings, philosophy, and tactics of self help, no meaningful steps toward restoring the profession will occur. I haven’t seen any evidence of that since letter 51.
The company is comfortably, yet firmly in control and as each one of us turn 65 with insufficient means of survival, we will have our own individual reflection as we look over our shoulder at this magnificent airline while escorted off the property for the last time.
A strong union with formidable unity as a priority could have achieved snap-backs at the least.
Considering the Pilot group resoundingly shot down TA-1 I think you are being a little pessimistic. And your Ed Bastion comment above reminds me of the “Richard Anderson said if we reject TA-1 we will get far less” comment last time around. How did that work out?
Yes our CEO is a smart man but guess what? The market for Pilots has more to do with what we will end up with than DALPAs incompetence or our CEOs genius.
In my opinion, the market or Pilot supply and demand is the paramount factor in negotiations and we currently have a very strong market.
Scoop
10-20-2019, 07:20 AM
#7
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: Captain
Posts: 821
Originally Posted by Taildragger1
Hi Tim,
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
I guess that depends on how you look at it. I’ve had one modest wife. I still live in the long paid for $89,000 house I bought on the B scale. My few toys have made money. Two kids. One ran a full ride scholarship. Second is still at home.
After the PBGC, claim, and note are accounted for and the hundred grand minimum I’ve usually added on top of my 401k, a 4% draw on all of my nest eggs equal FAE 12% but the year isn’t over yet so final math is yet to come.
What totally boggles my mind is how much better off I am than most of my peers. A snap shot from today means happy 65th birthday is sudden unemployment and a 88% cut in pay if I maintain discipline. Obviously the current rash of Greenslips runs those numbers toward the lower side but my goal of FAE 25% that I set after the bankruptcy simply isn’t happening in my life.
I strongly suggest everyone get a Fidelity advisor or equivalent. Look at your numbers guys. How are you really doing? Are you using ALPA R&I actuarial data that requires you to die in a timely fashion so the math looks less embarrassing? Is anyone really ok with that?
Like years at Delta when you retire. What you are projecting for FAE etc.
I am 53 with 12 years to go and was never the best saver, and although it seems like most retirement podcasts say that the 4% rule is outdated, even if I use it, I am looking at close to what I am making as a narrow body captain if I stay till age 65..
That is not counting the 1000 or so dollars a month from PBGC.
10-20-2019, 07:46 AM
#8
New Hire
Joined APC: Jan 2015
Position: Concourse A
Posts: 780
Originally Posted by PassportPlump
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-the-average-401k-savings-by-age-2019-01-31
Mid 30’s here with just over $340,000 in my 401k. I think I’ll be OK all things equal. I aggressively saved in my 20’s and I have been at Delta for my 30’s socking away on average about $40,000+ for the last few years.
Granted I was buying a lot during the recession and have enjoyed some pretty solid gains during that time (50% S&P/50% blue chip growth funds)..... the power of dividends does not go unnoticed. DL’s 16% + my own contributions have been noticeable as well. MY concern is the government finding different ways to spread the wealth as I get closer to my retirement.
If you work at Delta, live in a paid off $89,000 house, and can’t survive in retirement.... there are deeper issues. I just bought my first rental property a couple of years ago for $74,000, fixed it up, rent it, and it’s almost paid off with aggressive payments.
We need to meet or exceed our peers in many QOL items (vacation, training, etc.). The OP had a great post.
Mid 30’s here with just over $340,000 in my 401k. I think I’ll be OK all things equal. I aggressively saved in my 20’s and I have been at Delta for my 30’s socking away on average about $40,000+ for the last few years.
Granted I was buying a lot during the recession and have enjoyed some pretty solid gains during that time (50% S&P/50% blue chip growth funds)..... the power of dividends does not go unnoticed. DL’s 16% + my own contributions have been noticeable as well. MY concern is the government finding different ways to spread the wealth as I get closer to my retirement.
If you work at Delta, live in a paid off $89,000 house, and can’t survive in retirement.... there are deeper issues. I just bought my first rental property a couple of years ago for $74,000, fixed it up, rent it, and it’s almost paid off with aggressive payments.
We need to meet or exceed our peers in many QOL items (vacation, training, etc.). The OP had a great post.
Same here..mid 30s aggressively stuffing as much as I can in my 401k a year. Year 5 guy putting away around 40k a year. Luckily for us I think retirement will be ok. I would like to see additional gains to retirement and am interested to hear about the hybrid plan the union keeps mentioning.
Besides scope, I’d like to see QOL gains in most areas. Training/vacation pay, DH, medical plans that don’t cost an arm and a leg, retirement medical and the RCC having some contractual teeth are some of the areas we need to see improve.
10-20-2019, 07:58 AM
#9
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 2,767
I think there's gonna be a generational difference on some of this. Grand fathers generation had a pension, fathers generation didn't have parents telling them to bear down and save so they didn't until late in life when it turns out, "you mean I'm not gonna die at 67?", to this generation of pilots who had mom and dad yelling to save save save. I'd even bet this current crop who won't marry and saves retire early. Generations are wildly different. Wilfred Brimley was 49 when he shot cocoon. *shrug* Tom Brady is 42 playing in the NFL. The generation retiring didn't go through a decade of 40-50 grand a year, and maybe they had a furlough, but they're trying to get with the program in the last 5years and it's ugly to watch.
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