If these questions can't be answered I would strongly consider a no vote on a contract with a MB.


-What would have been the value of the pension at retirement under the pay rates we worked at vs the value of frozen pension, PBGC, BK Claim, merger money, profit sharing, and DC invested at 6%?

-What was the lifetime earnings of those potentially receiving the MB adjusted for inflation vs those who don't receive the MB?

-What is the cost of the MB relative to the cost of the whole contract?


I know the first question has been asked several times and the answer is "it's too complicated and we don't have the data". I would argue we are competent at polling and costing so we should be able to do this. Get a representative sample of say 1000 pilots from the group that would receive the benefit to provide the info. Seems like a small amount of work if you want a 6 figure check. Telling the rest of the pilot group that they have more time compound is an insult. As we all know another lost decade in the market is always possible. Also don't forget that hopefully you don't die the day you retire and you live another 20 years. So your money does have time.


The second question comes forward because many of the defenses of the MB are based on being fair to everyone. However, the MB argument can't be made in a vacuum. Every group except for the newest hires can say they were affected by the early 2000's. The group getting the MB also worked under C2K where FO's pay adjusted for inflation made what a captain makes today. They also benefited from a 5 year extension of the retirement age and early retirements. They are also senior enough to dump their schedule and GS. The people behind this group may have been furloughed for 5 years with zero pay, stagnated for 5 years in their seat and are too junior to hold weekends or GS regularly. The industry wasn't fair to anyone and if you are going to argue a benefit targeted at one group then make it a fair comparison. Tell someone that isn't getting the MB why its fair. The argument can't be based on what you hypothetically lost. The only objective data point can be how much you made. Saying its too complicated to figure out is not a defense. If the benefit is that important to someone and they have a compelling case then they will figure it out and make it.


The last question is what is the cost of the benefit. My guess is over a half billion dollars. What do we give up for that? What if we were offered over 150,000 IVD's instead or improved reroute pay. It's not an insignificant amount of money. It will come at the expense of something else.


The precedent alone is bad. The MB is divisive at face value. Will we negotiate carve outs for targeted groups in the future based on market performance? That being said I am still willing to listen but I have not heard a compelling, objective argument on why I should support this.

 

Are you asking the interwebz this question? Or have you actually called your NC to get a response??? They do pick up the phone you know.

 

BS
They are not going to answer any one of those three questions.

 

I mean, you will have to ask more than one person, a volunteer isnt gonna chase down minutia. Especially the "whats it worth, yeah yeah yeah, i i know its impossible to know." When i was a volunteer and got asked nonsense like that i just shuffled the pass because i was a volunteer and already had way more work than i could do. But someone help eventually.

Also, ask one question so they dont think you have an agenda, then a week later ask the second in a sincere tone saying, "hey man, like i know this probably isnt office hours for you, but you were so good the last time i was hoping i could ask you another?" Repeat as needed.

 

I’ll take those responses as a no.

 

Possibly. No.

The NC and MEC have an agenda. To push for an improved retirement for the Delta pilots. Admirable. But answering questions 1 and 2 would reveal that most pilots are doing/did okay and would demonstrate what this really is: a money grab by older pilots. If you want to target people who were furloughed - fine. But to target people (many who have millions) by age is not equitable.

They will not answer question 3 because is involves proprietary information and even if they could let you see that number it would show that it takes up a huge chunk of the contract.

 

The questions were asked directly to the NC and the R&I Committee on more than one occasion over the last few months. The response from all was pretty standard. Paraphrased: "We don't have access to all the data and there is too much variability from pilot to pilot to compile. We are just trying to do something that is fair". I will say they were sincere in that response and were honestly trying to do what they felt was best. Just for me the case has not been made and it's too big a figure to ignore.

 

So your post is, "Ive asked a few people these three questions," which you admit sampling 1000 pilots should be easy, but its too easy for you to waste time doing, "cant get satisfactory answers so we should vote no."

Furthermore, "all of you should ask these same questions, not so we get answers, but so we reveal the plot by senior pilots to grab all the money."

Seems like your post should just be, "ive decided this is a money grab by senior pilots, ive already concluded the same for you, i wanna light some torches. Who is with me!?"

 

Ask away to your heart’s content.

 

The case has not been made for me either. I participated in all of the polling done and the questions seemed kinda directed. I had many comments at the end of the survey because the questions themselves didn’t address any of it.

Honestly I don’t trust the MEC/NC specifically because of this MBCBP/MB. I believe they are trying to do what’s “fair,” I just don’t think they’ve done the legwork to find out if people are actually hurting (more than the rest of us, who weren’t here during bankruptcy).

Part of the reason I don’t trust the MEC/NC about this is because I fly with guys who complain about their loss of seniority due to the merger, who complain about their retirement, then 20 minutes later tell me they dropped $600,000 cash on a house.