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Originally Posted by UGBSM
(Post 2998733)
It was a limited time program that the company wanted to extend. The union then said no. In hindsight, I still think it was unnecessary and guided by fear.
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Originally Posted by full of luv
(Post 2998664)
It was a time when things looked bleak and pilots over 50 vested in the retirement plan could take a lump sum of 1/2 the present value of their lifetime annuity so they did before that door closed. It resulted in many pilots of certain fleets leaving simultaneously which made the company/union work out a temp plan to let them fly (in retired status) until replacements could be trained.
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Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 2998438)
How solid would a DB be? This whole crisis in my opinion just validates the value of a 401K. Yes the markets are tanking and 401s are taking a hit. But seeing how quickly the airlines can turn from wildly profitable to disaster would anyone feel secure with a “promise” of a DB? I would not.
If we had enough folks dependent on a DB the company would use it as golden handcuffs to get us to gut our PWA to save the DB. How much value would a 60+ year old Pilot put on QOL items or pay vs protecting the DB? How about a 63 year old Pilot? How much would they be willing to give away to protect the DB at all costs? I don’t blame them, I would probably think the same way if I were in that situation. Finally how hard would it be for the company to dump the DB in times such as these? In my mind this whole Coronavirus issue highlights the shortcomings of a classic DB. Could we perhaps come up with some kind of different DB that is not subject to being liquidated? I have heard guys mention an annuity in everyone’s name but I am not sure of how much that would cost. I just have a suspicion that if we currently had a DB the company would have a lot more leverage over the Pilot group than they currently do. Scoop Now... me - stock/bond market - my money DB... me - Delta - stock/bond market - my money annuity... me - insurance company - Delta - stock/bond market - my money |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2998740)
This is incorrect. A early retirement program was negotiated to retire 500 pilots early to reduce furloughs. The company actually allowed closer to 600 to go early. The PRP program was tied to the early retirements to allow it to be completed rapidly.
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Originally Posted by Xray678
(Post 2998871)
there was never an early retirement program, at least not post 9/11. There was one tied to Contract 96, and there were no PRPs associated with that one.
With the ratification of Letter 50, Letter 49 also became effective, and all PRPs, with the exception of 11 named individuals, all Lead Line Check Airmen, were terminated at the end of 2005.As of this writing, there are eight PRPs still employed. Every remaining PRP will be terminated no later than the end of the February 2006 bid period. Delta Air Lines and its pilots' union reached a tentative agreement yesterday on a plan to avoid service disruptions that could result from a flood of early pilot retirements, a situation the struggling airline warned could put it closer to bankruptcy. As part of the agreement, Delta promised the union it would not terminate the pilots' pension plan before Feb. 1, even if the airline files for Chapter 11 protection, the Air Line Pilots Association said |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 2998732)
The point of the PRP program where pilots could come back and fly was to quickly allow the company to early retire around 600 pilots. The average PRP pilot worked for 6 weeks past their scheduled retirement. A handful of check airman were able to stay for a year because of the FAA’s refusal to qualify more than 2 new LCA’s a month on the 767.
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Originally Posted by UGBSM
(Post 2998733)
It was a limited time program that the company wanted to extend. The union then said no. In hindsight, I still think it was unnecessary and guided by fear.
It was the "least bad answer" for the time but a necessary evil. ALPA did a good job limiting the scope of the program to the absolute minimum required for the company to fly the schedule, and not a whit more. |
Originally Posted by gopher3
(Post 2998895)
And 1200 pilots were on Furlough when the Perps cashed out and then came back and flew In their Seniority as if they were not retired. Still ended up in bankruptcy. Defend it all you want. Borderline Scabs in my opinion.
But when you have a company owned DB they have a hostage the group would do almost anything to 'save'. |
Originally Posted by gopher3
(Post 2998895)
And 1200 pilots were on Furlough when the Perps cashed out and then came back and flew In their Seniority as if they were not retired. Still ended up in bankruptcy. Defend it all you want. Borderline Scabs in my opinion.
I also remember the 777A being so incredibly short-staffed due to the massive wave of simultaneous early retirements, that some of the PRPs were able to score regular lines, even as they were at the bottom of the category lists. Again, it almost "seemed" that they came back to their old in-category seniority. They did not. The PRP program was an unfortunate, but necessary step we took for a limited time for a specific, unique purpose. It served its purpose and went away, as it always was supposed to do. Sometimes tough decisions need to be made. That's called living in the real world. |
An early retirement incentive program would only exacerbate the short term cash flow problems since I doubt anyone would accept an IOU from the company. Fool me once...
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