is there anyway to even initiate a DDH if the trip is off my schedule...

the trip is in 3 weeks. I haven’t contacted CS or anything. Trying to ammo up to see if I have a case.

Contractually there was no need for them to cancel the rotation because of a change in DH unless there was no other option to get you there.

so do I have any recourse to try and not have to sit recovery?

I doubt it. The best option to avoid sitting is probably to preference a recovery trip. You could also ask that the obligation be dropped and WS something to make up the time.

Question for the hive mind...
 

I've got a 4-day rotation removed with a 23k obligation on the 8th. Can I put a recovery slip in for a similar trip that starts on the 7th? The trip would actually work better for me than what a surprise trip might be. How does one go about that? Just submit a normal recovery slip that specifies the specific date and rotation? What are the benefits/pitfalls of such a move?

Read 23j of contract. You can pick up a trip anywhere in month to replace 23k trip as long as it's value is worth at least 50 percent of original trip. That means it's possible to replace a 4 day with a 2 day and still get paid for the 4 day. Learn your contract. It will save you time and make you money.

I read that part and that was basically what I gleaned from it as well. I just wasn't sure if in this scenario I would still have an obligation after termination of the 23k trip since the footprint of my original rotation would still have one day remaining. The trip I'm looking at for the recovery slip actually pays more than the NOOPd trip, which is fine by me. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't exposing myself to additional liability or leaving money on the table.

No extra liability. I'd recommend picking up a 2 day worth less via 23J. That will eliminate your 23k obligation. You can then pick up another 2 day and get 6 days pay for only 4 days work. Only problem is 2 day has to pay 50 percent of original trip. If original trip was worth more than 21:00, can cause you a problem. My 3 highest credit months of my career were Apr, May, and Jun. As a commuter, I did it by manipulating 23k. I will say scheduling has changed their ways a little bit so it's harder to manipulate now.

You can swap out of a 23k trip. You don't even need to use 23J to do what you're doing.

Unfortunately not a lot of open time in my category. So it leaves me with the choice of a recovery trip that would be...fine. Or rolling the dice and hoping that CS doesn't concoct some heinous trip and throw it my way. I've seen a couple of those go out this month and yeeesh...

I tried to swap my 23K trip and got a “Pilot is not assigned dropped rotation”. Do I have to call CS to have them swap my trip?

I don't know. That's a good question. I have always used the recovery slip template to swap for smaller trips. Maybe I was wrong and will eat crow.

I suspect that if you use "Swap With Pot", it will yield that result. If you use the recovery slip template, it should work like Hockeypilot said. I submitted a recovery slip last night and this morning was awarded a two day in place of my four day 23k rotation on the 0700 PCS run.

Canceled overnight
 

Just had them cancel 1 leg to an overnight. Now they have me domicile layover for 11 hours and then deadhead the next morning for a red eye 10 hours later. Will they pay for a hotel in domicile or do they expect us to sleep at the airport or pay for our own lodging? This is 5 days before the trip even starts?!

I don't remember the exact part, but that is covered in section 23 of the PWA. You are entitled to a hotel for the unscheduled domicile layover.

Thanks, that's what I thought, but I read the section but it's not clear if this is 23K (middle of trip)or reroute before sign in. All this is so incredibly hard to follow now that the company is doing whatever it wants with these schedules!

Thank you both, I never knew that recovery slip page was there. I just put in for another trip and it accepted it. The only thing I don’t know is how much my 4 day was worth. I put in for a 2 day worth 10:30. If the 4 day was worth 22 hours, will a 2 day not satisfy the criteria? Or do they only look at how many days the trip was worth, when determining whether you get the rotation guarantee? Thanks.

It's pay, not days, so a 22 hour 4 day would need an 11 hour 2 day to satisfy your recovery obligation.

PCS will deny your recovery slip if the new trip isn't worth at least 50 percent of the old trip.

I know you said “value” but you also said “4 day with 2 day” so I just want to clarify for the OP.

The key is credit, not days.....a min credit 2 day worth 10:30 does not replace a high time 4 day worth 23-24 hours.

Total credit of the 23J trip you are trying to pick up just be half or greater of the credit for the original trip.

Thanks guys. I’ll have to look at the bid package and see if my 23K trip had more than 21 hours.

Edit: I just looked it up...my old trip was worth 21.19. It also had 2.26 of credit, so some rig pushed the value up 19 minutes too high. Unbelievable.

Edit II: I just looked up my recovery slip and it has a denial reason....23K encroachment or not on recovery roster. My 23K trip was 24-27 AUG, I tried swapping into a 2 day 28-29. I thought you could swap for anytime during the month.

Same thing happened to me. Just make sure you call accommodations and tell them you want a hotel otherwise they default to you not having one.

Here’s another one. I had a 4 day awarded for my bid. They subsequently cancelled a turn and changed the rotation weeks ago. Today they made it 23K with recovery. Isn’t that double 23K?

Did you acknowledge the first change when they CNX'd the turn?

Yes. Scheduling said that was a “schedule adjustment.”

If you ACK'd the first time, and it changed again, that would be double 23K, which is only allowed IAW 23.K.1.d.3 Note 2

That is what I thought, tried to explain, and was told I was wrong. I am waiting to call ALPA tomorrow to see if I missed something before I press the issue. Trip is on the 12th so I have time. But extra pay is good too.

They are pushing really hard against double 23k and no recovery. It's frustrating. They are flat out wrong and they refuse to make it right.

An update. Spoke with ALPA and they agree. Called skeds again this morning to try again. That person was agreeable yet I’m still showing a recovery obligation in icrew. This is exhausting.

Had my next trip 23k. On my monthly schedule it says, REMARKS: 23K WITH NO RECOVRY DUE TO OVERCOVER LEGS IN DOUP. I have no obligation correct or can they change it before checkin time for original trip?

They can’t notify you of a change if you don’t answer the phone or log into icrew... :D

But seriously sounds like you are off the hook.

If I have a trip NOOP does it matter if I white slip or put in for a recovery trip? I had a WS request in that I got.

It does only in that you forfeit the original change (need two more strikes now for double recovery) and you forfeit pay protection for original trip (if it was less then it’s no biggies).

You really should have picked it up via a recovery slip but in reality it probably won’t matter.

I think he only loses the guarantee if he swaps his 23K recovery trip for something else.

If they NOOP’d his trip and didn’t get 23k assigned, then he keeps the original guarantee and he can then WS/GS as he sees fit.

Are you basically saying he got in before the buzzer or it noop’d and they said no recovery. The 23K lags a few potatoes behind the noop, it was definitely coming (based on the usual process of today’s schedules in my experiences). And because a recovery slip is higher in the pecking order than a WS, it makes sense to use it as it affords you protections and gets you the trip you want first.

Im saying if the system let him pick up a WS, then he must not have had 23K recovery obligation. Didn’t think the system would allow a WS if he was showing on the recovery obligation roster.

Conversely, I know when my trips were covered with legs cancelled and I knew it was going to get NOOP’d, I was not able to submit recovery slip until I had actually been slapped with 23K.

I agree on your second part 100%. I see what you are saying about the first part and that makes sense too.

Thanks for the discussion. The NOOP went 23K and I P/D the WS trip. It was just an old WS request that hit that I forgot I had in.

Yep. Rather than NOOP they (CrewSkd) have been getting creative with the deadheads to keep you on a rotation with cancelled legs or legs that don't match due to marketing changes. Usually resulting in domicile layovers. See 23k.1.f

Question for the masses:

I’m on reserve for August. Got a line for Sept. 3 day trip Sept 1-3 NOOP then 23K already. There’s a 3 day starting August 30 and pays 7:15 for Aug and 8:30 for Sept.

Can I put in a recovery slip for that? The original trip was for 16:10, so 8:30 meets the 50%. If I can get it via recovery slip, how is the 7:15 for August handled being I’m on reserve?

Thanks in advance!

You can’t recovery slip while on RES.