2558 Executive Hostages... sick times!
 

Been thinking about all that’s happened since March. First off it seemed to start well. We immediately reached out to the company for the April re-bid and that would’ve given us time to help negotiate continued relief w/ Delta. I was pleasantly surprised. That didn’t last long and it seemed we had gone back in time and all of those happy thoughts we all used to share on Profit Sharing Days of years past got flushed down the toilet in one quick flush. The early days of the rhetoric on skynet from JL and his cronies immediately changed. It was just a curt “we are not going to be offering SILs”... nothing more.

Since then it’s just been more of the same. They are using skynet to negotiate in public while shaming us for not taking an ALV cut. What always gets me though is that we are operating on an expired contract. A contract that was economical over 4 years ago, but not now. What if we had just signed a new contract in January or February? Would they be asking for us to take this “old” contract +ALV minus 15%?

It’s all optics and semantics guys. They are targeting us because historically they do that... we make the most, so just like the rest of the world the “richest” are asked for the biggest sacrifice. Have they taken any other group hostage via WARN notices? So there are 2558 UNA’s that are executive hostages... no other WARN notices have gone out. There is also not a push to ask other groups to give more.

It should absolutely tick off every pilot here, especially the 2558 who are executive hostages. It’s apparent that Delta can’t see past next week on this... 2558 of the future of Delta Air Lines are being held hostage. That’s just plain wrong. Meanwhile Alpa continues to offer many reduced cost or non-cost options for many different programs and ways to help Delta save large amounts of money. 1) USERRA relief 2) SILs 3) Voluntary paid leaves in many different increments 4) blank lines 5) Voluntary reduced pay lines for less days required to work... I’m sure there are more options being floated but everything I’ve heard or seen is plain NO. ALV - 15% for NO furlough/1yr. If they can do that (which I don’t trust them 1 iota) then we can agree to a package of items to help save pay.

They only thing they want is ALV - 15%. I have major trust issues that quickly got dusted off after the SILs debacle in March.

I think we continue to stay the course. We are on an expired contract which has offered great savings to where we should’ve been. We don’t give a cent. Period. I’m all for offering the items above. But we’ve all learned (if you know the history of labor) that if we give them a cent, they’ll take a dollar and will later ask for more.

Had JL honored the SILs agreement in March, I’d personally be more inclined to offer more help. But how many times does someone have to be treated badly before they say enough! I am at enough!

How about the rest of you and what have you all heard from the line?

What you said rings true. Had they offered SILs back in the spring, then offered various other voluntary programs, and then early outs, I might have been more inclined to help if the voluntary programs didn't save enough money. But the order of the various programs seems all backward - the GOAL seems to furlough pilots, rather than save money.

Who puts out a displacement bid BEFORE they offer an early out??

Now they have this bid they can't train, with a decent portion who were displaced on paper but now will be leavings before their displacement. So to keep the widebodies flying (assuming the senior people leaving are on wide bodies) they will likely have to put out an AE to fill the spots that they just got rid of.

As one of the 2,558 being held hostage, it’s caused a lot of stress and anxiety that could have been avoided. It’s creating a deep frustration with the company I’ve been dreaming to work for for so long.

If they offered even 50% paid leaves I could have takin it and supplemented with work in another opportunity for a year. Saving the company money. Those alone on unpaid leave won’t be enough. I’ve turned down opportunities because of the lack of options we have.


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The SIL Reneg (yes, they abided by the letter, but not the intent of the agreement) and JLs continued apparent glee with "oh well, I guess we will keep on cutting" makes me not trust a darn thing they say.

Exactly my friend... company always hints about optics. Their optics are horrible on this. Like you said, everything was backwards and the optics on that, along with the 2558 WARN hostage letters, point to pilot targeting. No one else in the company has had ANY deal or promise of no furloughs for a year.

This whole endeavor has been textbook labor bullying. Nothing makes sense (to us). Because they are using anti-labor techniques and those do not follow a nice, gentle and sensible path.

Many of us lived through the last black swan event. Most of us know about it... now we need to remember what happened and use those memories of just how nasty and unfair of a situation that was... and use that to further bolster our desire to not let it happen again.

PS-Remember that true character only comes out during times of duress. All those times the company says great things about the pilots (During happy times) are mostly bull$h!^. Now JL has reminded us just what they think of us... cost units.

This nails it. The company “doesn’t” want to furlough but we will probably have to. “They” care... well if they really cared, they would understand the plight that potential furlough or furlough really has on someone. Especially in our industry and line of work. But there’s no empathy. Zero. While the people on the hostage list are passing up jobs that will keep them and their families whole, the company is playing Russian roulette with us and especially with the 2558... people don’t forget games like that. I never have after I watched 925 of my fellow pilots (and myself) get furloughed from NWA, while our hours were transferred to the 50 seaters under the guise of saving money... There never has been any and there never will be any empathy towards pilots. Most people think we are overpaid whiners, especially the executives of this company. The drive, mental ability, cost and sacrifice to complete the career track to become a pilot that those critics couldn’t have accomplished or were too lazy to even try. Don’t fall for the rhetoric that we are being inundated with from JL and the rest.

A great quote that is useful to understand our current plight...

Wait, so out of 90,000 employees, 2558 of the lowest paid pilots are the group that is going to break the spine of Delta Air Lines. Who’s buying this crap?

You mean 75,000 employees...probably 73,000 after our VEOP window closes.

Oh yeah.

Wait, so out of 73,000 employees, 2558 of the lowest paid pilots are the group that is going to break the spine of Delta Air Lines. Who’s buying this crap?

One point of correction. It was the company that approached ALPA about SIL’s & April Rebid. Only to decide they “didn’t feel right”.

I got it! Let’s can a few SVPs, that’ll save some jobs. We’re a smaller airline now, right? JG can take JL’s job back. He can handle safety and flight ops, he already knows how to do both. If management is serious about looking at all options, let’s cull the exec herd!

They’ve all given 25% of their salary!!!!.... that equates to about 4-5% of what they usually make... oops. Those “optics” didn’t last long after Ed was quickly called out about his “cut” in his salary only equated to a paltry 4-5%...

A pilot who usually flies 88 hours gives up about 18% when flying 72 hours.

Yeah, and they only take home 60% of that salary. Not a difficult “give” for them. Nope, I say can ‘em.

This was psyops pure and simple. They went for shock value in order to entice more early outs, and they said as much in the town hall, although not in those words. Paraphrasing, I seem to recall them saying they did it this way so pilots would know where we stand, or something to that affect. They cut down the wide bodies and northern bases to “entice” senior WB pilots to take the deal. That was my interpretation anyway.

The thing is, I don’t fault the company for wanting/needing to cut costs, to include furloughs if necessary. I do fault the company for their machination against pilots in particular. Management approached ALPA, seemingly as a partner, and their actions (aside from VEOP) have been anything but mutually beneficial. It’s more of a “my way or the highway” approach to negotiations. The company is going to cut X amount of dollars, and they don’t care how. We can either cover the cost ourselves via ALV reductions, or the company will cut it with an axe via furloughs. Temp ALV reductions are better for the company as the pilots pay for the cut and alleviate the training burden associated with the MOAD for the company. Those are the only two choices we’re being given at the moment.

As a negotiating “partner”, management’s stance so far reminds me of the negotiations between Billy Bob Thornton and Hugh Grant in the movie Love Actually. For those that may recall, the two actors are discussing trade policy and Billy Bob (POTUS) says to Hugh Grant (English PM), “I’ll give you anything you ask for - as long as it's not something I don't want to give...”

We’re being told we’re a partner, but we’re not being treated as such. We are being told what is going to happen and how this will go down. As others have said, 100% of us can take a 15% cut, or 15% of us will take a 100% cut. That’s it. Either way, pilots are going to be paying for it, and management does not seem interested in mutually beneficial (voluntary) solutions.

Granted, it was only a movie, However I feel Hugh Grant’s response to the POTUS in Love Actually was very appropriate to our situation with management now, and I’d encourage DALPA to adopt a similar approach. Here’s the quote, I’ll substitute the words President and Britain, and then it rings true...

“I love that word relationship. ... Covers all manners of sins, doesn’t it? I fear that this has become a bad relationship. A relationship based on [management] taking exactly what [they] want, and casually ignoring all those things that really matter to [pilots].

A friend who bullies us is no longer a friend. And since bullies only respond to strength, from now onward I will be prepared to be much stronger.”

I was a happy, motivated, proud delta pilot.

Management's actions, so aptly pointed out by others, during this event have flipped me 180.

When we do eventually come back from furlough (hopefully), and upgrade, how motivated do you think we're going to be to go that "extra mile" for them? I can't speak for others. I know where I'll be.

Extend? No. FU. It'll be fly the contract for me. Nothing more.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/34/f6...859b24948d.gif
It seems JL is doing his best to put us into the red...

No doubt about it, having trouble finding motivation to study for my CQ in August just to be on reserve for one month and UNA and probably furlough on 10/1....sigh

They have officially burned every bridge.

May the bridges I've burned light the way.

Pretty sure JL has nuked the bridges from orbit. With RG providing the PAL key.

Good MEC update. Although meeting with Ed regarding labor may not bear fruit. Delta guys can help here... didn’t Ed say when asked about pilot cuts during BK that he lost sleep over not taking more????

This whole issue is systemic. The anti union mentality does not stop at JL. This has all been organized from the top. The quicker everyone realizes that the better for us.

Alpa is the only one pilots have here that are looking out for us. Thank goodness. Alpa is not perfect. And I’m one to criticize Alpa at times, but I do back Alpa. I do back the PAC. I do vote. I do participate with my LEC reps, good and bad.

In the end, without Alpa we’d be flying big RJs around the lower 48... that’s the truth.

Everyone is capable of doing the math and I’m sure most have, but I thought I’d share my thoughts.

2558 furloughs = ~600 million savings over 18 months which is roughly 22 days of liquidity at current spending rate

DAL 5 year avg stock buyback 453 million.

IMHO nothing we do changes managements strategy.

Management has their Sundae they are just trying to get the cherry!

agreed, these are my sentiments as well.

You will for now. When you have a bunch of years past you and you are getting a $40k profit sharing check, your motivation will come back. However, you will (should) remember that the Delta family only exists during the good times. You are merely an expense when things go badly.

I'm old already. A mature adult with adult children. I'm starting to get AARP mailers.

I'm a retired military guy. There's only one thing that will get me to turn on someone - loss of trust. Trust defined us as a profession of arms - it had to be that way. Violate the trust = outcast. You can never really get that back.

No, what I said is gonna carry thru. Again, can't speak to others. Management violated the trust. They reap what they sow.

The LAUGHTER you hear is really crying because the whole operation is so GUMMED up it BURNS.

The Chairman update was great and hopefully cooler heads and honesty prevails in our negotiations. I now understand why there were so many guys that only did the bare minimum when times were good. The actions of the leaders in flight ops will be hard to forget. While the names may change it is likely that the system will just replace them with more of the same.

Being the Points Guys #1 airline and the announcement on SkyHub yesterday really motivated me...

what announcement?

Yes...what announcement?

Yeah, I believe the chairman going directly to Ed was a good move. I believe that hopefully will change the course of negotiations, the company has a number in their mind, they can get to it in different ways, I think voluntary measures are better than furloughs.

If they offer a long terms SIL, I’m sure many will apply. If they offer part time lines, I’m sure some will apply (including myself).

Hopefully our chairman showed Ed what we’ve been trying to negotiate and how with those programs, we don’t have to furlough. Which BTw they could use the same type of programs for non contract employees.

They can offer a paid leave to overstaffed groups. I’m sure many will get time off for 6-12 months if you pay them to stay home.

The ball is in their court, we can work with them, but demanding 15% ALv cuts and nothing else doesn’t show good faith.

Its on the main Skynet page.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepoin...-airlines/amp/

There’s a townhall on skynet later and someone is asking if we’re going to park some -220s in the next few months, as 70% of the FOs go UNA. I look forward to watching JL trying to answer this.

Seeing as how Alaska and Southwest are avoiding involuntary furloughs, I get the feeling that we'll have an agreement by Sept. 30 to mitigate most (if not all) furloughs.

That question,,,will probably won’t be answered or we will get a “well, you know, we are still analyzing how are we going to do this. We still have some time to negotiate with ALPA”. :rolleyes:

" We said we weren't going to be doing math today".

What announcement is everyone talking about? I don't see anything on Skyhub except for the townhall which seems to be later than they usually do them.

They addressed this some time ago and said they would park some of the 220 airframes and increase flying on other fleets to compensate. With the recent announced reduction in planned fall flying they might not even need to increase other fleets.

Apologies if this has already been addressed, I'm too lazy to read the entire thread. Incorrect...119 of the remaining 369 dispatchers received WARN notices for 01Oct. Between the 97 who took the ERP's and the 119 on the hook, that's FOURTY SIX PERCENT of the seniority list that existed pre-COVID gone or facing being gone. And to boot the company want's a 25% hour reduction (ready ALV) for furlough protection through the end of the year, not June of '21.

So there's that.