and how is that better than paying a single rate? If the advantage is that you can do whatever you want, why still pay an 11 year pilot more than a 10 year?

i get why you want a change, but don’t see why your logic stops there. If a 717A isn’t “worth less” than a 777A, is the difference between two longevity points any more meaningful?

 

So you are saying that experience is worthless. We should revisit that in 20 years or so and see if you still believe that.

 

ah the condescension part of the afternoon. Excellent. Please tell me about my inexperience

but we don’t pay by experience, we pay by longevity/airframe. Otherwise we’d get raises based on hours flown or type ratings held, or previous experience before hiring. But we don’t.


heck, even longevity doesn’t pay for experience. I could fly years of 800 block hours or years of 300 block hours. One definitely results in more experience.

 

Yeah you are right. That 2 year captain is worth every bit as much as the guy that's been her 25 years.

I'm out.

 

Ok since you aren’t here - If that Captain is not worth the same then why can they fly the same pax to the same place on the same day in the same type airplane? And actually probably fly in worse weather because the senior Captain can bid around going North in the winter and flying in the afternoon thunderstorms in the summer. The longevity pay idea is a scheme just like our current scheme. One is no better than another unless of course you already got all your longevity raises and you don’t like international. Then of course the longevity scheme is better!

 

I wouldn't agree with that and I suspect most pilots and companies wouldn't either. Never going to happen.

What we can do to mitigate the negative effects of our airline specific seniority system while maintaining its positives would be to continue improving things at the bottom end.

Hotels, uniforms and line pay (versus "training pay") are a good start. But IMO we need to completely do away with the disproportionately low "first year pay" (and second year pay in many cases). First year pay should only pay a couple percent less than 2nd which should only pay a couple percent less than third, etc.

We should fight to keep the 12 year scale and even lower it if we can. Better work rules and positive space commuting would also go a long way to soften the blow of starting over, especially when forced under economic duress. Better language mandating the hiring of existing ALPA (or other unions under reciprocal agreements) pilots would also help. We have made progress to a certain extent but could and should go much further.

IMO there's simply no way pilot groups or airlines will ever agree to "one list" where any liquidating airline can just slide on over with their DOH and max benefits, let alone the recreational cross overs/PWA shoppers. When SWA was "king of the hill" for much of the "lost decade" with their small 737 pilots making more than DL 777 or NWA Whale pilots, the large number of high longevity USAir/AA furloughs on the streets would have just slid on over to the left seat there? Right. Fully loaded Escalade a month and a one horn pony that farts glitter for everyone.

Meanwhile in the real world there are things we can do to take a lot of sting out of starting over, whether it be by choice or not.

 

I love the flying I am doing. From all the complaining about domestic, going back to that would be a yuge 'no thank you'

 

Under longevity, they both move the same metal to the same cities, generating the same revenue. So what value are we paying for, and why is an 11-year pilot worth more than a 10-year pilot?

 

I flew the same routes in a CRJ-200 that I now fly in a 737. I am definitely worth more now. Honestly, when the door is closed, I have no idea how many people are seated behind it. It's the same job CRJ-200 to A350-900. Many have said the airplane and the flying make the A350-900 easier. Every time we reinvent the wheel we lose, 1 scale 2...22 IDK but my pay rate increase needs to be inflation +5% minimum. That's like 22% right now. Hell that won't even get me to the high water mark of 2004 adjusted for inflation. 737 C2K @ 2004 $256.53 adjusted for inflation = $410.39. UPS uses the 767 as the benchmark airframe their top pay for 2023 is $376.16 and 2024 $388.38. Our current 767 is $296.19 so 22% gets us to $361.35 which still lags. You can argue over scale types and justification as long as you like but if I don't see 4/4/22/5/5 at a minimum I'm a no. Every one is expecting this. Tell me you are not.

 

the 4/4 is retro right?