Originally Posted by Rooster435 (Post 3639970)

OMG, can we move this discussion to its own thread instead of chowdering up this one. Couldn’t believe how many pages of this crap I had to scroll thru.

Originally Posted by Tropical (Post 3639517)

First of all, you're retired, so maybe you could consider paring back your lectures to this pilot group.

Second of all, you used a lot of words to say "ALPA merger policy considers career expectations, longevity, and status and category". The CRJ900 is not currently flown at Delta and would come in below even the 717. The career expectations of a 30 year CRJ900 A wouldn't even come close to a Delta 717 A. The career expectations of a CR9 B wouldn't come close to a new hire Delta 350B. No arbitrated list in recent history has gone straight DOH, so it's unlikely they could use their 30 year RJ lifer status to trump the other two.

You never know what an arbitrator will rule, but it is very likely that a staple with fences is the most fair integration under ALPA policy, and McCaskill-Bond may not even apply since we are not like carriers.

Finally, even Delta management would likely rather walk away than see some 30 year RJ guy end up as a Delta 330A and cause a downward cascade of training events. Simply ain't gonna happen. They'll pull the plug on 9E a la Comair before they'll let that happen.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 3639963)

As for 1., DL most certainly could not do that. The DL PWA mandates how seniority is assigned. By class date and last 4 SSN within a class. Management would have no latitude to deviate from that. They can't just go off contract with seniority or anything else like that.

What they could do is very closely mimmic that by offering up an agressive amount of flows. However most if not all of those planes, which the company has refused to contractually reduce by even one, would still have to be flown for a while, perhaps a long time still.

Would DL add that type to the mainline while simultaneously flying the same type outsourced at the regionals? Would they still continue to take OTS pilots in addition to flows? Would this save any money or solve any problems? What would the pay rates be for a 70 or 76 seater? Would any of this coincide with DL PWA mandated reductions of "permitted types"?

We would be in uncharter waters with all of this, and no one knows what would happen if an arbitrator got involved.

As for 2., I 100% agree. Regional pilots work hard and fly more legs per day on average than most mainline pilots. I've seen them do everything they could to get pilots on the JS and likewise have done the same when I could.

They're great pilots and we should all want them here as well as wanting the end of the whipsaw FFD model. I just don't see any other way to do it then to ramp up the flows (and/or OTS hiring) while contractually reducing allowed large RJ's that can be outsourced.

Originally Posted by FangsF15 (Post 3639589)

Yes, you did. Several different ways, in fact.

//Break Break//

Even if... Even if it got to arbitration, it's extremely likely the arbitrator would duly consider the career expectations, status, and category - and conclude they are all clearly 100% below every last pilot on the DL seniority list. it's actually not that complicated.

But I have an honest question. Seriously, please answer this:

Do you think any pilot currently at 9E should be senior to even one former 9E pliot who already flowed off the top of their list? And who had been senior to them while both were at 9E? IOW, do you think it's "fair and equitable" for that junior 9E pilot to leapfrog and now be the senior pilot at Delta?

Originally Posted by CBreezy (Post 3639934)

I feel like I'm talking to myself here. Why are we talking about a "merger." We don't have the airplanes they fly on property. We could structure a list integration as an advanced flow as we bring airplanes on property. Stop hiring on their bottom. More people from the top. Why even bother with a list merger?

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 3639952)

While that matters a lot to individual pilots, it wouldmean nothing to an arbitrator. I'm sure there were some pilots who left an airline that eventually merged with another one. They never get any credit whatsoever for that. No arbitrator will ever care about that; its not a thing.

The bottom line of all of this is that we would be playing with fire. The threat of something greater than a staple would be real. Why mess with that when we could get the exact same end result by flowing even more EDV pilots until that flying is phased out?

Originally Posted by JamesBond (Post 3639981)

Just a guess, but a merger would bring those airplanes to mama Delta? And you DO want all that flying here.... right? And just another guess.... the guys that fly them would come with those airplanes. It's just too bad they are ALPA.

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 3639963)

As for 1., DL most certainly could not do that. The DL PWA mandates how seniority is assigned. By class date and last 4 SSN within a class. Management would have no latitude to deviate from that. They can't just go off contract with seniority or anything else like that.

What they could do is very closely mimmic that by offering up an agressive amount of flows. However most if not all of those planes, which the company has refused to contractually reduce by even one, would still have to be flown for a while, perhaps a long time still.

Would DL add that type to the mainline while simultaneously flying the same type outsourced at the regionals? Would they still continue to take OTS pilots in addition to flows? Would this save any money or solve any problems? What would the pay rates be for a 70 or 76 seater? Would any of this coincide with DL PWA mandated reductions of "permitted types"?

We would be in uncharter waters with all of this, and no one knows what would happen if an arbitrator got involved.

As for 2., I 100% agree. Regional pilots work hard and fly more legs per day on average than most mainline pilots. I've seen them do everything they could to get pilots on the JS and likewise have done the same when I could.

They're great pilots and we should all want them here as well as wanting the end of the whipsaw FFD model. I just don't see any other way to do it then to ramp up the flows (and/or OTS hiring) while contractually reducing allowed large RJ's that can be outsourced.

Originally Posted by tennisguru (Post 3640001)

True, but where has there ever been a seniority list integration where every top pilot at one carrier had already been offered, in seniority order, a job at the better carrier? Getting hired off the street and then getting jumped in the integration isn't really an apples-to-apples comparison.