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Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
(Post 3531710)
Agree.
This is a math problem. For the very vast majority of us the MBCBP is a good idea. |
Originally Posted by Scoop
(Post 3531747)
All true but as pointed out by someone above vacation accrual has been accelerated. So everyone already on 5 weeks vacation gets squat from this benefit. If you were here 10-15 years you get a little bump from this and if you are a new hire you enjoy the full amount of this benefit.
The NN said we would have the best vacation section across all the passenger carriers. Considering UA tops out at 6 weeks…I’d say it means the senior pilots will get something out of this. Especially if vacation pay more…perhaps equal across all vacation weeks. That’s an immediate benefit to everyone, but benefits more senior pilots in the short term. That’s hardly “squat”. |
Originally Posted by Tailhookah
(Post 3531396)
I know that you UNA group has had a rough go of it. Laid off with full pay. Upgrades while on probation. DC plan at 16% for your whole career. Massive profit sharing to come if you weren’t here prior to Covid.
Now the very people who helped make most of that happen, through our union, are trying to help some of the list out that got their pensions slashed or taken away and furloughed for up to almost 6 years. The very system that you will benefit from, have benefitted from and can look forward to benefit from is not up to your satisfaction because it wants to help the old guys who got the shaft. But all you can focus on is what happened to you as UNA’s (not perfect, was stressful, but worked out well-thanks Alpa and the pilot group for not caving and pushing very hard for the VEOP, on top of the great deal made for UNA’s who double dipped while we were on reduced ALV’s or RSV GAR) instead of looking at the total big picture and sacrifice made for all. I’d be willing to bet a big group of UNA’s made more during that timeframe due to double dipping. We couldn’t do that. So now when Alpa is attempting to make a very big wrong a better right, some of you are selfish and can’t see it for what it is. You want yours and screw the older seniority. No matter what they gave up and fought hard for what you have now. Some of you will never understand even if you get hit by the clue bat in the forehead. A lot was given up and we’ve been trying hard to get it back. We all doubled down during Covid, wrote our reps and supported the very good UNA plan and ensured the UNA crowd didn’t get hosed like we all had before |
Well
I believe the 16% DC should have been “harmonized” from the beginning. Harmonizing is both used by ALPA and Mgt. Basically, A new hire would start off with say 5% DC that grows each year at 1% until he/she hits the max. That should have been done until every DZer was made whole. Since we can’t do that, we should all know that pay banding, which is coming, helps the Junior more than the senior, because a smaller AC will get a bigger pay raise. Let’s also say that better vacation accrual helps Junior also. Let’s also say that a bigger pay raise as a opposed to a bigger retro ( which I heard is in the works) benefits Junior because some of them weren’t even on the property two years ago. And since the pilot pool of DZers has shrunk considerably, maybe junior’s ok with at least one part of the contract benefiting pilots that kept the airline together through the BK years |
Originally Posted by scrmhalf
(Post 3531919)
And since the pilot pool of DZers has
For those (many of you now) wondering precisely what does "deadzoner" mean? Well, originally, it stretched all the way back to 2004/05 timeframe, when the pension was still there, but we all could see that it was on its last breath. Due to the nature of our then-intact pension (and still current Age 60 rule), so long as you were at least 50, you could retire, and take half the actuarial value of your predicted pension payments in a lump sum. If you retired early there was a hit of course. On the one end were some guys who panicked and retired early at 51 who got $400K in a lump sum (years later they could have made that in one year as senior widebody A, but who could predict the future) and that was it. On the other end were guys like a jumpseater we had once, 58 years old and about to get a 1.5 mil lump sum. Both those were outlier examples, and most early retirees, who took the lump sum while they could, got some amount between the two. A "deadzoner" was a pilot, usually in his late 40s or perhaps early 50s, who was either ineligible to take early retirement at all (not yet 50) or if he was, it would have been greatly reduced due to taking it at a young age in the early 50s. So....not quite enough years on the property to avail himself of any decent retirement/lump sum, but also someone who had built up enough years with the company to both start anticipating a nice traditional pension based on years of loyal service, and also someone close enough to retirement that a healthy 16% DC fund like we have now (and it wasn't even 16% post BK for years) wouldn't have enough years to accrue significant assets to make up for the loss of the anticipated traditional pension--so back then we truly DID have "deadzoners." We don't have any now. ANY pilot left claiming to be a "deadzoner" is merely appropriating the term to mean...whatever it is he wants it to mean. Anyone who was a captain in the early 2000s is surely a senior widebody A by now, and likely has been for a long time. Not exactly my definition of a deadzoner as they originally were. |
Originally Posted by scrmhalf
(Post 3531919)
Well
I believe the 16% DC should have been “harmonized” from the beginning. Harmonizing is both used by ALPA and Mgt. Basically, A new hire would start off with say 5% DC that grows each year at 1% until he/she hits the max. That should have been done until every DZer was made whole. Since we can’t do that, we should all know that pay banding, which is coming, helps the Junior more than the senior, because a smaller AC will get a bigger pay raise. Let’s also say that better vacation accrual helps Junior also. Let’s also say that a bigger pay raise as a opposed to a bigger retro ( which I heard is in the works) benefits Junior because some of them weren’t even on the property two years ago. And since the pilot pool of DZers has shrunk considerably, maybe junior’s ok with at least one part of the contract benefiting pilots that kept the airline together through the BK years How about no. |
Originally Posted by Tailhookah
(Post 3531697)
I am not one in the cross hairs of the Min Balance. I’m younger than those guys. But it’s a good idea and I support it 100%. Because many since 9/11 that are in the cross hairs or like myself closer to it than the young guys, gave up a lot. Then gave up more. Then worked under crappy contracts under a stalled seniority list for almost a decade. It’s what the association is all about. When I was furloughed I was offered free Cobra. I never took it, but still to this day thank my elders for providing it. No one except the DZ’ers know what it’s like to lose, overnight 50% of their compensation and at or more of their pension. Yet some of you snot nosed flyboys (TopGun reference-tounge in cheek, don’t get yer panties in a wad Jr.) think it’s all about you. It sure is, but after we make wrongs rights. And that’s why I’m for the Min Balance. I don’t know what it pertains, but I’m all for seed money being added for what we all gave up, even if it was 17 years or more ago. It’ll benefit all, but some more than others. And I’m ok with that.
Anyways, why don't you ask a couple of your friends in the 'crosshairs of the Min Balance' what they need dollar wise to make their retirement work? And I'm not asking sarcastically, I am actually curious. |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 3531932)
I fixed it for you. Let's get real. There are NO "deadzoners" left. They have all long left the property and the term ought to be retired.
For those (many of you now) wondering precisely what does "deadzoner" mean? Well, originally, it stretched all the way back to 2004/05 timeframe, when the pension was still there, but we all could see that it was on its last breath. Due to the nature of our then-intact pension (and still current Age 60 rule), so long as you were at least 50, you could retire, and take half the actuarial value of your predicted pension payments in a lump sum. If you retired early there was a hit of course. On the one end were some guys who panicked and retired early at 51 who got $400K in a lump sum (years later they could have made that in one year as senior widebody A, but who could predict the future) and that was it. On the other end were guys like a jumpseater we had once, 58 years old and about to get a 1.5 mil lump sum. Both those were outlier examples, and most early retirees, who took the lump sum while they could, got some amount between the two. A "deadzoner" was a pilot, usually in his late 40s or perhaps early 50s, who was either ineligible to take early retirement at all (not yet 50) or if he was, it would have been greatly reduced due to taking it at a young age in the early 50s. So....not quite enough years on the property to avail himself of any decent retirement/lump sum, but also someone who had built up enough years with the company to both start anticipating a nice traditional pension based on years of loyal service, and also someone close enough to retirement that a healthy 16% DC fund like we have now (and it wasn't even 16% post BK for years) wouldn't have enough years to accrue significant assets to make up for the loss of the anticipated traditional pension--so back then we truly DID have "deadzoners." We don't have any now. ANY pilot left claiming to be a "deadzoner" is merely appropriating the term to mean...whatever it is he wants it to mean. Anyone who was a captain in the early 2000s is surely a senior widebody A by now, and likely has been for a long time. Not exactly my definition of a deadzoner as they originally were. small DB. The Follow on DC was 5% tied to BK wages. The 16% DC didn’t hit until 2016 along with better wages. No time to build a 401K even close to anyone hired post BK. First time in airline history that new hires have a pension worth 10times that of a DZer And Don’t forget, the merger hurt a certain group and set Them back 1000s of seniority numbers |
I have a pension?
Sent from my SM-G965U1 using Tapatalk |
Originally Posted by Herkflyr
(Post 3531932)
I fixed it for you. Let's get real. There are NO "deadzoners" left. They have all long left the property and the term ought to be retired.
For those (many of you now) wondering precisely what does "deadzoner" mean? Well, originally, it stretched all the way back to 2004/05 timeframe, when the pension was still there, but we all could see that it was on its last breath. Due to the nature of our then-intact pension (and still current Age 60 rule), so long as you were at least 50, you could retire, and take half the actuarial value of your predicted pension payments in a lump sum. If you retired early there was a hit of course. On the one end were some guys who panicked and retired early at 51 who got $400K in a lump sum (years later they could have made that in one year as senior widebody A, but who could predict the future) and that was it. On the other end were guys like a jumpseater we had once, 58 years old and about to get a 1.5 mil lump sum. Both those were outlier examples, and most early retirees, who took the lump sum while they could, got some amount between the two. A "deadzoner" was a pilot, usually in his late 40s or perhaps early 50s, who was either ineligible to take early retirement at all (not yet 50) or if he was, it would have been greatly reduced due to taking it at a young age in the early 50s. So....not quite enough years on the property to avail himself of any decent retirement/lump sum, but also someone who had built up enough years with the company to both start anticipating a nice traditional pension based on years of loyal service, and also someone close enough to retirement that a healthy 16% DC fund like we have now (and it wasn't even 16% post BK for years) wouldn't have enough years to accrue significant assets to make up for the loss of the anticipated traditional pension--so back then we truly DID have "deadzoners." We don't have any now. ANY pilot left claiming to be a "deadzoner" is merely appropriating the term to mean...whatever it is he wants it to mean. Anyone who was a captain in the early 2000s is surely a senior widebody A by now, and likely has been for a long time. Not exactly my definition of a deadzoner as they originally were. |
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