Minimum Balance Plan
11-11-2022, 10:40 AM
#1
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
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Minimum Balance Plan
One of those running for MEC Chairman wrote
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to retiring pilots (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from. Help me out here.
Originally Posted by Ryan
The Minimum Balance portion of the plan is essential for our more senior pilots and the only way of remunerating them for loses and sacrifices made which have never been restored or, frankly, even acknowledged by management.
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to retiring pilots (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from. Help me out here.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 11-11-2022 at 11:02 AM.
11-11-2022, 10:50 AM
#2
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Joined APC: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,987
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
One of those running for MEC Chairman wrote
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to a retiring pilot (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from.
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to a retiring pilot (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from.
11-11-2022, 10:54 AM
#3
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,066
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
One of those running for MEC Chairman wrote
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to a retiring pilot (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from. Help me out here.
Can we talk about this?
63% of the pilots at Delta have been hired post-bankruptcy. The vast majority never saw a claim, PBGC, or stock. It is unlikely they'll will get an additional five years at the top of the seniority list either. We are talking millions of dollars all in. It has been 15 years since bankruptcy and since then ALL Delta pilots have had the same opportunities to save (401K, roth, etc).
It does suck that all across the industry (and most of the professional world) companies moved away from Defined Benefit Pension Plans. It happened. It also sucks that there was 9/11, bankruptcies, age 65, mergers and mainline pilots who permitted outsourcing. Every pilot everywhere has something in their career that could have gone better.
It is understood we made a $300,000 demand, paid out on day one to a retiring pilot (it would really suck to have to retire one month before the implementation date). For those preferred Delta pilots, they just get $300,000. A very special contract for them. For the rest of us we slowly fill up a Minimum Balance with our DPSP excess cash (we get to fund ours ourselves)
In the past we have tried to negotiate provisions that benefit ALL Delta pilots EQUALLY. I do not understand the political support for the special deal for preferred Delta pilots. It isn't free money. This is a shift from junior pilots to senior pilots.
Please explain it to me so that I'm not just a *NO* vote on the unfairness of it. If the majority of pilots want this I will go along, but it seems like those who got the most get more and those who got stuck at the back of the line get to continue saving their money like they always have.
We Do need a place for excess DPSP cash. All for that. Trying to wrap my head around a few pilots getting $300,000 that the very vast majority of pilots will not benefit from. Help me out here.
11-11-2022, 10:58 AM
#4
Can't abide NAI
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Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,989
Originally Posted by CBreezy
The Min Balance Plan was brought up because any DC increases would have a disproportionate benefit to the most junior pilots and almost no benefit to pilots retiring in the near future. In order to recognize this fact, the min balance plan idea was created. It basically creates an annuity which would take whatever gain in DC we get and bridge the gap for those close to retirement. Every year after the agreement is signed, the value of the annuity decreases until the end of the agreement or 5 years (can't remember which) at which point no pilots would qualify for an annuity.
As things stand right now I am a hard no-vote on something that unfairly benefits some pilots at the expense of everyone else. However, I'm open to changing my mind.
11-11-2022, 11:21 AM
#5
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Joined APC: Jul 2013
Posts: 10,066
Originally Posted by Bucking Bar
That makes sense in principle, but not in principal. So lets say there is a 2% increase in contribution. That is about $4 or $5K for what I assume the average pilot will make. Takes an awful long time, like 60 years to equal out.
As things stand right now I am a hard no-vote on something that unfairly benefits some pilots at the expense of everyone else. However, I'm open to changing my mind.
As things stand right now I am a hard no-vote on something that unfairly benefits some pilots at the expense of everyone else. However, I'm open to changing my mind.
11-11-2022, 11:44 AM
#6
New Hire
Joined APC: Jul 2015
Posts: 1
Just a couple of points. Although it has been quite a few years since bankruptcy, not all of those years equate to the same number of years for someone hired at a later date. The current 16% DC took quite a few years to achieve. As did the current, still undervalued, pay rates. All I'm saying is that 15 years from bankruptcy to now is not the same as fifteen years from ten years post bankruptcy to 5 years from now. And it is not insignificant. Another point is that while it would be nice to have all areas of the contract affect all pilots equally, that just isn't realistic. There are many areas that benefit some pilots over others. That's just the way of a union.
That being said, I totally get your apprehension about the minimum balance and I think it's good to ask the question and hopefully someone will be able to answer it better than I. To me it's similar to retro pay. I am a no on any agreement that does not provide retro pay back to the amendable date. I don't get anything out of that but it's the right thing to do for all of those that have "retired" since the amendable date. They should be paid the money that they would have received had the contract been completed on time.
That being said, I totally get your apprehension about the minimum balance and I think it's good to ask the question and hopefully someone will be able to answer it better than I. To me it's similar to retro pay. I am a no on any agreement that does not provide retro pay back to the amendable date. I don't get anything out of that but it's the right thing to do for all of those that have "retired" since the amendable date. They should be paid the money that they would have received had the contract been completed on time.
11-11-2022, 12:00 PM
#7
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Joined APC: Jan 2011
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Posts: 376
Pay raises disproportionately benefit those who aren't forced to retire by age. Should we be giving min balances for pay raises to those who won't benefit from the full timeline of increased payrates? Of course not, so why would we front load a payout on any possible increase in DC contributions?
Any Rep that supports Min Balances is irreparably harming the pilots of Delta Air Lines by delaying a new contract. Dozens of pilots have asked the MEC to poll the support for Min Balances. THEY WONT DO IT. They know that not only will it get blasted in a poll but they themselves, would face a recall. If there was ever a shadow agenda at DALPA in my time here, it's the pursuit of Min Balances. It's probably the single greatest reason pilots don't trust our leadership, and the greatest threat to our unity.
Min Balances is a poison pill that has almost ZERO support and if by some miracle made it into our next contract, it would eat up an ENORMOUS portion of the contract cost.
Any Rep that supports Min Balances is irreparably harming the pilots of Delta Air Lines by delaying a new contract. Dozens of pilots have asked the MEC to poll the support for Min Balances. THEY WONT DO IT. They know that not only will it get blasted in a poll but they themselves, would face a recall. If there was ever a shadow agenda at DALPA in my time here, it's the pursuit of Min Balances. It's probably the single greatest reason pilots don't trust our leadership, and the greatest threat to our unity.
Min Balances is a poison pill that has almost ZERO support and if by some miracle made it into our next contract, it would eat up an ENORMOUS portion of the contract cost.
11-11-2022, 12:28 PM
#8
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Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by Elf1
Just a couple of points. Although it has been quite a few years since bankruptcy, not all of those years equate to the same number of years for someone hired at a later date. The current 16% DC took quite a few years to achieve. As did the current, still undervalued, pay rates. All I'm saying is that 15 years from bankruptcy to now is not the same as fifteen years from ten years post bankruptcy to 5 years from now. And it is not insignificant. Another point is that while it would be nice to have all areas of the contract affect all pilots equally, that just isn't realistic. There are many areas that benefit some pilots over others. That's just the way of a union.
That being said, I totally get your apprehension about the minimum balance and I think it's good to ask the question and hopefully someone will be able to answer it better than I. To me it's similar to retro pay. I am a no on any agreement that does not provide retro pay back to the amendable date. I don't get anything out of that but it's the right thing to do for all of those that have "retired" since the amendable date. They should be paid the money that they would have received had the contract been completed on time.
That being said, I totally get your apprehension about the minimum balance and I think it's good to ask the question and hopefully someone will be able to answer it better than I. To me it's similar to retro pay. I am a no on any agreement that does not provide retro pay back to the amendable date. I don't get anything out of that but it's the right thing to do for all of those that have "retired" since the amendable date. They should be paid the money that they would have received had the contract been completed on time.
11-11-2022, 12:40 PM
#9
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Joined APC: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,909
I’m also confused…and also willing to listen.
“You can tell it’s an Aspen because of the way it is.”
Of COURSE improvements to the contract are going to benefit people who stay longer and work more than those who do neither. That’s because they stay longer and work longer. A 20% pay boost is also going to help me more over the next couple decades than it helps someone who leaves in two years; we don’t double or triple the hourly rate for someone nearing retirement because they’re leaving soon, right???
The contract to fix deadzoners was C2015. Fixing them now (when very few of which still remain) is too little too late.
“You can tell it’s an Aspen because of the way it is.”
Of COURSE improvements to the contract are going to benefit people who stay longer and work more than those who do neither. That’s because they stay longer and work longer. A 20% pay boost is also going to help me more over the next couple decades than it helps someone who leaves in two years; we don’t double or triple the hourly rate for someone nearing retirement because they’re leaving soon, right???
The contract to fix deadzoners was C2015. Fixing them now (when very few of which still remain) is too little too late.
11-11-2022, 12:42 PM
#10
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Joined APC: Sep 2017
Posts: 899
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Dont forget that the DC plan was initially targeted to pay a far greater percentage to junior pilots because senior pilots had the frozen DB plan. When the DB was terminated those senior pilots were never made whole as promised by retargeting the plan.
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