And there’s an equally long list of gains that don’t go into effect until after that. Facts and all.

I've seen the 1 hr above guarantee hit my pay sheet towards the end of each of my SCs. It is nice to see. May's schedule awards will be interesting with the 18 hr starting.

This. I purposely bid a reserve sked with a consistent pattern of three days on/four days off the majority of the month, and with most of my on-call blocks being only 3 days in length, combined with an 18hr leash, i wonder will I work even less than I already do and maybe just get tagged with a few more SC's?

18-hour long call starts no later than 6/2/2023 per MOU 23-01. Are you thinking the company will implement it earlier?

No argument there, but the OP stated:

“Most of the soft pay gains that will either make QoL better or enrichen us do not go into effect until after another red hot summer.”

I was demonstrating that most (not all) of the soft pay gains will, in fact, be in place for the summer. No matter how many times people try to say otherwise, the lions share of items that will drive increased pay do start before the summer.

There are certainly other items which are deferred, but the OP mentioned specifically that “soft pay gains” didn’t kick in until after summer, which just isn’t true.

8/31/2023 appears in the MOU 9 times. Those are mostly Sect. 12 changes. Section 12 is Hours of Service. it's fair to say QOL doesn't really kick in until after (another "hot" ;)) summer. Most of the changes prior are penalty pay not actual schedule improvements.

That's moving the goalposts. Also, the penalty pay items were designed to improve schedule quality in the optimizer.

How is restating the facts of the MOU moving goalposts? And let's hope there aren't design flaws, but either way we won't really find out until we have June 2024 under our belts, that's 16 months.

Saying that the pay rigs don't start along with qol items was where it started. Saying the pay rigs that are designed to be QOL items don't count is very much moving goal posts.

Since the 18 hour leash doesn't start until the June bid period, I don't think you'll be as happy with that bid if you put it in for next month. We've got just shy of two months before we even bid for it.

Ok, I guess I had no idea where the goal posts started. That doesn't change the facts and the hope of penalty being more than it is.

Wait. You actually think the company will make schedules significantly better because they have to pay us a little bit more? Please tell me you don't think that is going to make a huge difference.

Hint: Don't spend that $207 you are getting for the scope grievance all in one place. It's the same thing.

The rotation construction committee played with the optimizer to come up with the numbers that made the optimizer want to build rotations we like.

So yes, I think they will affect what the optimizer does and the company loves using the optimizer. They aren't going to make crappy rotations just to spite us.

Have you done the math on the extended duty day pay? It can easily make a NB 3 day 15:45 trip pay 18-19 hours or a 21 hour 4 day pay 26-27 hours, with no additional work required over the way they currently build the trips. That's a good 12-20% more pay for the same rotation. For reserves, that pay goes on top of the guarantee. That's not including any sit pay, ADG pay or min day credit.

It doesn’t help QOL though because “pay no credit”. If it was used as credit we’d all be getting an extra 2-3 days off a month.

So you think "we got 'em" this time?

The point is that I don't think these pay 'penalties' are going to do very much to change the quality of the rotations, but time will tell. I will also be interested to see how many more pilots are required for short call as a result of the 18 hour long call.

No I don't think they will make crap rotations out of spite. I don't think they ever have. Like you said it is all about the optimizer. But they had their calculators and micrometers out taking into account all of the factors and new work rules and they will maximize the blood they get from the turnip. Will things get better? Sure. Will it be significantly better? We'll see. Are these pay 'penalties' the driving factor? I highly doubt it since the bankruptcy resets are now set in stone and they know they don't ever have to worry about those again.

welp, sounds like we shouldn’t have even spent time working on these penalties, since they’re irrelevant

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I think I even used the word irrelevant.

Here is what I find funny. The characters who whine about Delta squeezing all the credit/pay out of the trips are now claiming that Delta will suddenly stop trying to do just that just to spite the pilots.

You mean the same couple of (few) posters that have 10's of thousands of posts and I personally can never remember a positive perspective in one? :)

I actually agree with JamesBond here. I don't think these "penalties" will affect trip construction. There's a reason they're pay not credit. If it were credit it would count towards reaching the LCW, effectively making pilots fill up with less actual block. This pay no credit just means they're willing to pay a little penalty for now. I'm a yes voter because I like money, but I'm under no delusions that trips are going to magically get better. Maybe I'm wrong and long term the "optimizer" will adjust for the slight added cost of certain "penalties." This summer I highly doubt we'll see much change though.

Engage podcast had a good explanation from the negotiators as to why they took a PNC approach instead of focusing on credit. This was my concern prior to listening.

Not the least of which is the fact that PNC is paid above reserve guarantee.

I'll take a listen. I'm not complaining, I like pay :D especially as someone who bids reserve about half the year.