Silver Slips
08-09-2024 | 04:30 PM
#191
Moderator
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,237
Likes: 80
From: DAL 330
Not much of a dog in this fight (because I'm very, very lazy), but I don't think you heard many senior guys complaining about new hires getting <1 year upgrades or rolling thunder consistently for 2-3 years.
Other than maybe noting that "this won't last, because it's a union shop and seniority always rules."
(I didn't see my first green slip until well past year five, and almost year 9 for the upgrade..which went the way of the dodo during Covid)
Can't fight the system. But boy, you sure can complain.
Other than maybe noting that "this won't last, because it's a union shop and seniority always rules."
(I didn't see my first green slip until well past year five, and almost year 9 for the upgrade..which went the way of the dodo during Covid)
Can't fight the system. But boy, you sure can complain.
Yep. Got my first GS after 8 years at DAL - 9 years before my upgrade at 17 years. With that said I am not against tweaking the leveling mechanism to make it more equitable, but the reason we have 1 and 2 year upgrades is because many FOs have decided to stay senior to leverage their seniority. How much we weigh that seniority is totally subjective, but guys getting all premium before middle level Pilots get any seems a little unfair.
I guess its kind of like improving the vacation accrual - great for junior Pilots but absolutely worthless for all Pilots alrady on 5 weeks of vacation. Why didn't we add a 6th week which would provide benefits to both Junior and senior Pilots? Both SS and vacation came from the same contract - we all have something we can complain about.
Scoop
08-09-2024 | 04:31 PM
#192
Moderator
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 7,344
Likes: 347
In my little corner of the widget, the SS are nearly all decent trips. In fact many of the ones that went out were normal trips that I'd bid as a relatively senior pilot. Then again most of the trips in my cateogry are just meh anyway 🤣.
I'm with you, I'd be fine if SS went away entirely. I think it's a concession.
If we're going to have them, I don't have an issue with senior pilots having an advantage. The issue is how incredibly significant the advantage is.
SS combined with the ability to drop to zero is taking greenslips away from the entire category and focusing that premium flying narrowly into the very top of the category. Do you really believe that just a few pilots should be able to have 87-100 hours of 200% pay before someone middle seniority gets one minute of it (and still be first in line for a greenslip)? This is a realistic scenario when premium flying isn't plentiful.
Real life scenario: I was talking about this with a buddy. He's above 15% in category. He has a pretty open schedule this month. According to him, there are several pilots above him that were awarded two silver slips. There are one or two that were awarded three silvers. We're talking about potentially 60+ hours of premium flying (so 120+ hours of pay), and he hasn't had one SS award. And, those guys that are already at 120+ hours for the month still get to beat him out for GS#1. Again, he's higher than 15% in category.
Just ran some numbers in my category:
That is why I think we need to modify this award process. Not because senior guys have an advantage, but because the advantage is so huge and slanted in favor of so few. Meanwhile, that top 15% still get first whack at GS#1, despite the fact that their silver slips have removed a significant amount of flying that would have been spread around the list as broken up greenslips.
If we're going to have them, I don't have an issue with senior pilots having an advantage. The issue is how incredibly significant the advantage is.
SS combined with the ability to drop to zero is taking greenslips away from the entire category and focusing that premium flying narrowly into the very top of the category. Do you really believe that just a few pilots should be able to have 87-100 hours of 200% pay before someone middle seniority gets one minute of it (and still be first in line for a greenslip)? This is a realistic scenario when premium flying isn't plentiful.
Real life scenario: I was talking about this with a buddy. He's above 15% in category. He has a pretty open schedule this month. According to him, there are several pilots above him that were awarded two silver slips. There are one or two that were awarded three silvers. We're talking about potentially 60+ hours of premium flying (so 120+ hours of pay), and he hasn't had one SS award. And, those guys that are already at 120+ hours for the month still get to beat him out for GS#1. Again, he's higher than 15% in category.
Just ran some numbers in my category:
- Top 5% were awarded 33% of the trips. Of those pilots, 57% have more than one silver slip.
- Top 10% were awarded 45% of the trips. Of those pilots, 55% have more than one silver slip.
- Top 15% were awareded 67% of the trips. Of those pilots, 38% have more than one silver slip.
That is why I think we need to modify this award process. Not because senior guys have an advantage, but because the advantage is so huge and slanted in favor of so few. Meanwhile, that top 15% still get first whack at GS#1, despite the fact that their silver slips have removed a significant amount of flying that would have been spread around the list as broken up greenslips.
And in my category we still have 3 of them sitting in open time and wil likely go to reserves. A few others sat through a few PCS's before being awarded. Plenty of junior people on GS#2 or 3 as well.
08-09-2024 | 05:09 PM
#193
Bent over by buybacks
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,539
Likes: 454
I'd be curious to see the overlap of pilots who OOBWS with no reserves available in the base they're picking up in (eliminating an in-base GS), with those complaining that SS go "too senior."
I'm ok with SS--even if most go senior to me--simply because they adhere more closely to seniority than, say, OOBWS.
I'm ok with SS--even if most go senior to me--simply because they adhere more closely to seniority than, say, OOBWS.
08-09-2024 | 05:16 PM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 1
08-09-2024 | 09:24 PM
#196
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 970
Likes: 72
A definite win for the company.
A5S
<Edited>
Last edited by All 5 Stages; 08-09-2024 at 09:37 PM.
08-09-2024 | 09:43 PM
#197
Line Holder
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,770
Likes: 18
which is weird since it wasn’t the company’s idea at all
08-09-2024 | 09:45 PM
#198
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,145
Likes: 40
From: Supreme Allied Commander
I'd be curious to see the overlap of pilots who OOBWS with no reserves available in the base they're picking up in (eliminating an in-base GS), with those complaining that SS go "too senior."
I'm ok with SS--even if most go senior to me--simply because they adhere more closely to seniority than, say, OOBWS.
I'm ok with SS--even if most go senior to me--simply because they adhere more closely to seniority than, say, OOBWS.
I'm middle seniority now, but I will be senior for a long time. I still think SS is too rich. Needs a leveling.
08-10-2024 | 05:38 AM
#200
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 12,078
Likes: 15
From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I'm a West coast pilot. Seems the OOBWS bad mentallity exists mostly in ATL amongst senior guys, who see their neighbors in PTC who commute to NYC OOBWS "their" GS. I haven't sniffed that sentiment anywhere East of the Mississippi. I don't think many people out my way care if OOBWS got put after GS, or left it as is. It's not very common enough to notice.
I'm middle seniority now, but I will be senior for a long time. I still think SS is too rich. Needs a leveling.
I'm middle seniority now, but I will be senior for a long time. I still think SS is too rich. Needs a leveling.
That's 50% 320A in Atlanta
That's 18% in NYC
So the NYC guy can get day lines and other things easily traded away to make his'self (don't know any women who Ninja this stuff) to effectively put himself on permanent no-notice short call RESERVE in Atlanta for broken rotations. Usually, this works out to be less pay for him, but maybe a better quality of life. The most aggressive of these players reduce the premium flying in a senior base by ~$25,000 to ~30,000 a month PER PILOT if they fill up with flying that would have otherwise gone out as premium flying. I tracked one pilot (a guy who I actually like and who now lives in base) for a few months (he was not the most aggressive) and it was saving the company ~$12,000 a month.
Most everyone who takes the seniority hit to bid a senior base sees it as breaking in line. C44 has roll call votes and could have fixed the poaching. They're more focused on their next Admin job and are not going to rock their Senatorial Vote count to put Atlanta pilots first. So, it is "legal" for junior pilots to take senior pilots work.
Where things should be improved:
- The company encourages this **** by covering trips the second they drop into open time (as much as 3 days prior) instead of letting the trips run through PCS where pilots could swap >1 day out.
- The company hasn't followed up on NY pilots who are too lazy to drop their trips and instead just call in sick for them, then fly back with Atlanta flying
- PS commuting MIGHT make line breaking less prevalent. (If we gave them a Disney fast pass, would they stay in their line?)
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 08-10-2024 at 05:51 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
