Airline Pilot Central Forums - Pilot FLOP event

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SixStrngPilot (Post 4017272)

Were you on mainline Delta property in 2020? Management reneging own the PWA (which happens too often) is irrelevant to the SIL language in the PWA going away.

Objectively, the SIL language was removed. Otherwise, care to explain how there are posts on this forum from pilots who have never heard of a SIL?

I was already here long before then.

Out of all of the reasons given by both management AND the union for SILs not being offered in May and June of 2020, “it was eliminated from the PWA” has never been one of them. Quite the contrary — LOA 20-01 reinstated SILs to be used specifically for those two bid periods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FangsF15 (Post 4017211)

While that sounds great, I personally wouldn't support one NB pay band. The negotiating capital to raise the 717 rate over 16% just to match the 7ER/NEO rate is too much. Then add another 10-15% across the board for the rest of us... That would mean the 717 would get something like a 25-30% raise. Sorry, can't support that.

Some pilots getting a bigger pay raise than other pilot, where have I seen that before? Lol, I get what youre saying, but that line of thinking would mean we'd still habe two WB bands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bazinga (Post 4017213)

I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility of the company going for that big move on the 717. one, it won't be around much longer and will most likely be replaced by something bigger. two, we all know pilots who go through training just to chase a few extra dollars per hour. Possibly eliminating that from the equation and thus the number of training events could easily offset any dramatic rise in pay for our smaller NBs. A rising tide lifts all fleets, or something like that.

One of the justification for leaving the 717 behind last time, was that "it's not going to be around that much longer anyway." Not sure if that was the official word, but it was uttered often. I do agree with what you're saying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ancman (Post 4017280)

Guess you are just newer to APC...or have recycled your account.

SILs were removed, otherwise they would still be in the PWA. When did you observe the removal?

I did not see anyone awarded a SIL, perhaps some were. My understanding is that none were and that's why we got UNA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixStrngPilot (Post 4017265)

Yes, I watched the town hall in August of 2020 when RG made the statement. RG was in my new hire class and was "made" 7ERA years before the rest of us could hold 88A....which in my case the AE for was thrown in the trash in Feb '20...followed by the 88 going in the trash.

Wrong again

Quote:

Originally Posted by DWC CAP10 USAF (Post 4017303)

Wrong again

How about stating the exact time? Like the date and time, as if that really matters...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixStrngPilot (Post 4017285)

I have a .pdf of the live contract dated September 2021 that contains the SIL language (LOA #2) as well as LOA #20-01.

UNA has nothing to do with SILs never being offered. Did you miss all of the posts above?

You’re correct that APC join dates have nothing to do with seniority dates, so you’ve got that going for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FangsF15 (Post 4017211)

While that sounds great, I personally wouldn't support one NB pay band. The negotiating capital to raise the 717 rate over 16% just to match the 7ER/NEO rate is too much. Then add another 10-15% across the board for the rest of us... That would mean the 717 would get something like a 25-30% raise. Sorry, can't support that.

But I would support 2 NB pay bands: Large NB (7ER/320/73) and Small NB (717/220). Banding them to the highest respective rate.

And before anyone raises the "but what about the 763!!", I'd argue that the 763 will almost certainly not last to the end of the C26 cycle, so why spend negotiating capital on that at this point?

Gotta disagree Fangs. That was the same logic we heard during our last round of section 6: “the 7ER and 717 won’t be around much longer, so don’t waste negotiating capital on them!”

Guess we shouldn’t negotiate for the 767-400, since we can use that negotiating capital elsewhere too seeing as they will likely be retired once the 787s arrive. /s

Yet here we are again…entering section 6 and both fleets are alive and well, with no concrete plans to retire them (the 300ERs were supposed to be done 2 summers ago…)

We should negotiate for what’s on property. If we order a smaller WB down the road, we have set a precedent for it to pay NB rates. The 757-300 has 11 more seats than our 330-200. The 767-300ERs have 7 less seats, and literally fly some of the same routes at a massive discount in pilot pay.

The 220-100 has 1 less seat than the 717.

That argument literally holds no water. Negotiate for what’s here and what people are flying. The 7ER and 717 fleets make up over 20% (!) of the fleet at delta (196/975 aircraft).

Quote:

Originally Posted by ancman (Post 4017310)

UNA was the solution used when the company refused to use SIL. SIL language was removed, as it is no longer in the PWA...what was that process?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SixStrngPilot (Post 4017314)

UNA was the solution used when the company refused to use SIL. SIL language was removed, as it is no longer in the PWA...what was that process?

Not sure why you’re wrapped up on when the SIL language was removed. It was present in the contract until at least 2021, management agreed to use it for two 2020 bid periods (minimum), and they failed to honor that agreement.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Podrick (Post 4017244)

Why not, are 717 pilots beneath the rest of us?

It could actually benefit the company with less training events if pilots didn’t switch between NB fleets.

A220-300 carries 2 less passengers than our A319’s, therefore they deserve less pay?

Sorry to single you out, but I’m not a fan of negotiating in public. That, and I’m still annoyed that the ER is a NB pay rate because the union said it was going away soon… and yet it’s still here till 2035.

if we are paying by individual aircraft type, then I agree the 319 and 223 should pay the same, but if we are paying by category, the average seat count of an aircraft in the 320 category is 175, the 737 is 173, and the 220 is about 120. It makes logical sense that the 737 and 320 would pay more than the 220. It’s not how I would do it per se, but it does make sense.

also I have seen no indication the ERs (767-300) will stick around until 2035.