UPS crash lawsuits.
 

Sounds like those affected are lawyering up. Named in the suits is the captain of the doomed jet, or more precisely his wife and estate. Plaintiffs are alleging he had a responsibility to not fly a defective aircraft. Also mentioned was that he continued the takeoff with some sort of alarm (bell?) sounding. Likely a fire bell as the engine was separating (after V1).
Of course you can sue anybody for anything if you can find an ambulance chaser devoid of a moral compass (not difficult). But it concerns me that if it made it in front of a jury anything is possible.
Is there a precedent for this?

As I recall this issue happened previously (Lexington, comair, circa 2006) and the FO lived when everyone else passed. Not sure on the outcome.

everyone should have an umbrella policy just for this type of thing.

We've been sued, had individual crew members sued etc here at DAL for many different things, some would make you laugh. Here's how it goes down in court (I'm not a lawyer, but have been involved with this when I was back in the cubes). Judge - does the company (employer) have a procedure in place for this? Lawyer - Yes. Did Capt "X" follow the procedure? Lawyer - Yes. That's about as far as it gets.

They'll try to sue UPS, Boeing, mechanics, tug driver, manufacturers, crew and the seagull sitting on the light post. It's ridiculous but its an unfortunate by-product of our overly litigious society.

Our country is in dire need of Tort reform

Losing party having to pay would do wonders.

An attorney agreeing to sue the spouse of a deceased crew member without concrete irrefutable evidence that suggests malice or negligence should be disbarred.
Was the airworthiness release signed? Was the takeoff continued following a post-V1 warning?
We all know those pilots did as they were trained to do and were faced with an irrecoverable situation. Now a widow has to deal with this mere months after the loss of her husband.

Shakespeare was right.

Most of us should have an umbrella in general.

But none of us could remotely hope to acquire sufficient private insurance to cover liability for an airline crash. Maybe possible you could cover a settlement in a case where one or a few people had non-fatal injuries.

Reality is that we rely on common defense with the airline. They actually have a big incentive to provide common defense... the absolute last thing they want is a pilot making a deal with the plaintiffs to testify *against* the company.

Also worth noting that there's really no benefit to the company of throwing the pilots under the bus, they will still own all the liability for the behavior of their employees (manufacturers can benefit from blaming pilots).

In the case of a widow, not sure how that would work. Although the company would do the heavy lifting in a case like this one, and presumably it would all get rolled up into one case and the company's defense in this instance would also tend to cover the pilots. UPS will try to shift at least some blame to boeing for faulty design and how they managed the know defect.

Best insurance is don't crash (yes I know the UPS guys had no influence in this case). Guess if you're really paranoid you could structure your family assets in a strong trust (not the kind we use for inheritance planning).

The IPA has contract language that says UPS will indemnify/hold harmless a crewmember or their estate for any monetary judgment rendered against a crewmember or the Company arising out of the crewmember's performance of duties as a crewmember, as long as those duties were within the normal scope of his employment and no intentional misconduct is determined.

Time will tell how that language ultimately plays out in this particular tort.

I suspect the NTSB investigative hearing for 2976 on May 19-20 will provide additional information that the three crewmembers were as much victims in this as any of the poor individuals/businesses on the ground.

An umbrella policy is NEVER a bad idea though...

yep. lawyers are disgusting. one guy in a wheelchair in california has filed 1,800 lawsuits alone. plenty of law offices willing and encouraging this behavior. guy wheels around from store to store with a measuring tape. if the bananas are 2” further from the scale than prescribed, lawsuit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/socal/s/aeX8Dxi2TZ

https://courthousenews.com/lawsuit-to-block-california-ada-abuse-laws-on-thin-ice/

LOS ANGELES (CN) — A California Court of Appeals presiding justice said on Tuesday that she saw no reason why the court should revive a lawsuit filed by three wheelchair-bound men over a series of laws aimed at cracking down on abuses of Americans with Disabilities Act.

“My clients are serial litigators,” plaintiffs’ attorney Dennis Price, a co-founder of the firm Seabock Price, which specializes in ADA lawsuits, told the three-judge panel. “They are incredibly unpopular.”

But, he added, “constitutional rights cannot be burdened by overuse.”

Presiding Justice Helen Zukin called Price’s argument “not persuasive.”

“This is something that should be directed toward the Legislature,” Zukin told Price. “I do not see a constitutional violation here.”

Passed in 1990, the landmark federal Americans with Disabilities Act includes a provision allowing private plaintiffs to sue businesses and government entities for ADA violations — a set of stairs without a ramp, a parking lot without an accessible space, or a bathroom without an accessible stall.

In most states, plaintiffs can only secure injunctive relief and attorneys fees. But a California law gives winning plaintiffs an automatic $4,000 per violation. This spurred a small cottage industry of serial plaintiffs, who sue dozens of businesses for numerous violations, however picayune — a toilet paper dispenser installed five inches too low, or an accessible parking space a foot too narrow.

A 55-year-old internet marketer has filed at least 231 lawsuits in Los Angeles County in a single year, targeting hole-in-the-wall restaurants, liquor stores, laundromats, and convenience shops — often multiple businesses on the same block in a single afternoon. He is one of seven serial plaintiffs represented almost exclusively by Manning Law, an Orange County firm whose clients have collectively filed more than 9,000 lawsuits across Southern California over the last decade.

I generally don’t condone violence as a solution, but I think I could make an exception.

i have it on good authority the seagull wasnt on the radios, no transponder, no gps, lost in the charlie, GA dbag. They oughta yank his wings.

1. Umbrella insurance is non-negotiable for a high earning airline pilot. Get it.

2. "Loser pays" is generally known as the "English Rule." Differs from common American practice, except for states that have SLAPP laws (kind of "loser pays", but narrowly tailored for defamation/speech suppression cases).

3. Tort laws are important. If they didn't exist, the world would probably never have known the seedy details revealed in the 737 MAX MCAS debacle which led to the death of hundreds.

Ralph Nader and "Nader's Raiders" were incredible, although it's possible to go too far.

The only way facts come out is if discovery is invoked. While I hate that this particular lawsuit is going on, sunlight is the best disinfectant and unfortunately, it ain't free.

Fine. I'm out.

Story hour. Yep. Getting called a liar again.

**** it. Sick of providing proof. Done it multiplie times. About degrees. Patents. Things I flew.

Mods, nuke my account. **** it I'm out.

I find his experiences quite interesting. Nobody is making you read his posts. Lighten up, Francis.

A5S

<confused Gandalf meme>

Uhhh, ok what did I miss here?

CX don't mind the haters. They are all over this site and frankly I find it surprising some are still allowed to post their vile tripe here.

+1. I always enjoy CX’s posts as well…seems like I missed something important.

Yeah what’s with the CX attack? His perspective is way more interesting than the rest of the content…

Dang someone GFB'd him on the forum!

We need to remove GFBs from our hearts, as well as the contract.

Texas instituted tort reform years ago and it's been a windfall for hospitals who were guilty of gross negligence while absolutely screwing the individuals that were harmed. If you're not familiar with Dr. Death, Christopher Duntsch, it's work a quick Wiki read.

Agreed, I find his experiences and what he's done in the past, outside of aviation (his engineering, oil field etc) work pretty interesting. Being an engineer I like his perspective.

It's like me right now going back and forth with the Kelly Johnson's over in the 73 MAX thread drift about wings design and what is "new" and what isn't. Had Joe Bauers telling me the 73 MAX was a 60 year old design. Had SSM and a few others telling me about the 321 wing from the 320 wing. To the educated, they are wrong. To the average forum lurker they seem to be the experts (which they are not).

CX is an expert in the fields he was in. Still is in some respects (he has a patent to his name). Yet we have people coming on here berating him and calling him a liar? WTF? CX strikes me as highly intelligent and credible. Yet we'll have the haters here come in and tell him he's lying or doesn't know what he's talking about - they all know better. Again, is totally laughable.

I'm surprised he let that get under his skin. But I get it. I was there once on this forum. It really gets bad, and there is a little monkey tribe that runs around these subs that absolutely will gang you on here. I laugh now. They are very ignorant on most things - some do know the contract though. And you'll never see me argue with them when I know they know what they are talking about in that regard. However, the other things they think they are expert in - far far from it.

CX - ignore the monkey tribe, they're just ankle biters. I enjoy your posts and perspectives here and having other engineers around makes it all the better.

there’s also a long form Dr Death podcast and a TV miniseries too. Terrible human.

Two things can be true at the same time. He can be fully credible in everything he claims, and can also be insufferable when always bringing up his various achievements/hobbies/claims to fame.

A general trend for most achievers in life is that the more you've actually accomplished the less you really want or need to constantly trumpet it around, particularly to strangers on the internet. I'm sure CX is a fine enough person but his stories, while an interesting change of pace, are rarely asked for and only serve to showcase his own lack of self-awareness. I don't believe it comes from arrogance, it's just lack of tact.

We all knew a kid like him in grade school. They never change. And as an engineer and airline pilot, I can vouch that those kids often grow up and choose to become engineers and airline pilots.

No, they can't. Not in this situation. He really is the smartest guy in the room when it comes to subject areas he has expertise in. He provides background on his experience so you can understand that he does indeed know what he's talking about and is discussing something unfamiliar or that has been misconstrued by others and he is merely setting the record straight.

Funny you bring up "grade school"....some here, like yourself, seem to have never matured beyond the playground.

I love it when the smartest guy in the room is defending the smartest guy in the room.

I only merit that when I am discussing things to which I do, indeed, Know more about than 99% of the folks that are here. You included.

You don't see me posting about contract stuff, I'm not an expert on it, never will claim to be. Much smarter people on here about it than myself. I defer to them.


You're yet another shining example of someone who's never left the playground. Peter Pan much?

JFC it's worse than a coffee clatch around hear sometimes. (misspelled a word to trigger someone here)

I logged back in after a few years hiatus just to write this.

WOW.

Thats it, logging back out.

The thing is, the actual smartest person in the room doesn't say it. They don't need to. The ones who claim it are A) usually not, and B) compensating for something/narcissistic.

I thought this thread was about UPS lawsuits, not a bunch of people discussing how smart some random poster is like a bunch of middle schoolers.

​​​​​

So you have like an alarm going off whenever I post? You just "decided" to log in after a sabbatical and this is what you have to say?

WOW right back at yah pal.

Yeah, it wasn't much to talk about until CX posted he's departing the forums due to being called a liar by some ankle biting member of the monkey tribe that frequents this place.

Whats a sabbatical? My smooth brain doesn’t understand big words. But yeah, I peruse still. I have avoided posting because I needed to touch grass more because of posters like you. You, however, do provide good input occasionally. But the hubris…dear god. That’s my big word. It means you really come across as arrogant. Read the hiring forums where Fangs is trying to tell the Spirit guy he needs to be humble. Maybe take his advice. Yeah, you may be smart and in a lot of meetings, but you aren’t superior to “99%” of us. Guys like you run guys like me off this forum. Ban me, block me. Whatever. This place was useful and now it’s either politics, kool-aid, or doom and gloom. No more pragmatic thinkers on here. It’s no better than chit chat. And I couldn’t tell a 737 wing from a 320 wing if it wasn’t for the scimitars.

It was much more than just that, but I will let CX weigh in about that if he so chooses.

I had people call my cell phone, from an anonymous Google number and threaten to report me to the company for habitually lying on Social Media, and then said I am not of good moral character because of being a "habitual liar" therefore ineligible to hold an ATP.

Unfortunately the SM policy is so broad that, in theory anything I post, even simple as water is wet, sky is blue, can be a SM violation if someone interpreted it as one and pushed the issue with the company.

I have no question about it that I made some enemies in the Navy with a similar MO "Master is a liar" and then I'm having to prove my innocence.

I only answered the call because on race weekends I field a ton of calls, some of which are time critical. (Usually logistics related)

Not everyone was a cookie cutter path guy. Some of us have real world experience outside aviation.

I'm at a Supercross race in SLC. Back to watching the races. My guy got 6th in the 250s. 450 championship is down to who beats who tonight. 450 main on the gate.

Big fan of your posts CX. Stick around. Always on the lookout for you when I have the misfortune of transiting the NY area.

The dude has never posted anything aside from describing his experiences with the CPO/motorcross/Navy/oil industry/engineering. Just off the top of my head I can think of 10 other posters far more “inflammatory” than CX.

CX500T is authentic. No Fs given. Knowledgeable in fields outside contract sharpshooting (although good at that too.); let’s be honest, most of us are (professionally) one hit wonders.

Adds value to the platform.

APC is an ecosystem.

Don’t turn it into an echo chamber.

(“Likes” encourage this. “Downvotes” would kill it. That’s not good. Heck, I miss Ooff for the same reasons)

I don't know why he's so threatening to you. If you don't like people telling outrageous and sometimes unbelievable stories, you can always download a white noise app for your phone and go stare at a wall in your house.

I'm not the one that called him a liar or castigated him earlier on in this thread. His love of self-promotion simply invites the criticism and I'm not surprised when people assume he's spinning some tall tales. He rarely misses an opportunity to tell everyone about himself, even if the connection to the topic is tenuous at best. He's not hurting anyone but it's strange and peculiar and mildly annoying.

It's totally possible to not be a hater but to also call a spade a spade, and since I don't know him personally like it seems many of his defenders here do, my perspective might be reliably more objective in how he's coming across than to those who are already in his fan club.