Since our negotiations will start about 9 months prior to the amendable date, that leaves about a year of negotiations. That is much sooner than the NMB normally gets involved. The only reason it will be a year afterwards in our case (assuming we don't have an agreement) is that we've written that into our contract. Without that, the NMB would not get involved until somebody tries to declare an impasse...which is normally a number of years worth of negotiations.

Therefore, everything I've stated about this process regarding the NMB is entirely accurate. But feel free to continue making a fool of yourself.

Carl

In preparation for negotiations the MEC is meeting with the NMB in January 2012....

But feel free to continue making a fool of yourself. You're a natural, assistant groundskeeper!:p

First Officer:

Well, I thought I heard tower say "Cleared for takeoff, Runway Six Zero."

BAD CHECKRIDE REPORT

Grade: Fail

Reason: Pilot fell out of the decision tree and hit every branch on the way down.

New Flight/Duty Time reg scheduled to be released today. Hold onto your hats!

That's exactly what it be followed by me going :eek: when she says let me see what you post. :D

Is meeting the NMB in preparations for negotiations the same as getting the NMB involved? I mean on January 2012 DALPA is not going to present openers before theyre presented to the company?

So really, is this getting the NMB involved in negotiations or getting a lay of the land like a SWA style ATC pizza party? Because in the end these are lawyers, theyre taught to say and write nothing in 500 words or more, what are they going to do but listen? And listening isn't involving, unless you want to explain more about what will go on?

Or is this just expressing a desire to fast track to binding arbitration? That makes me worried tha there is a desire to be relieved from blame ASAP.

See every football team meets with the referees prior to kickoff for an informal meeting about expectations and possible trick plays. it's not the same as arguing that the other team is playing dirty on that play, was offsides, that catch was incomplete and their cheerleaders are distracting the kicker so throw the flag please! None of that invovelement can be given until the authority is given.

Please....

Really? The NMB getting involved in negotiations prior to negotiations would be the first I've ever heard. You post that meeting schedule and the topics that involve our negotiations and I'll gladly admit I'm wrong.

Carl

quick duty question
 

on short call reserve: we do not have to exceed the max contractual duty day listed on rotation plus 2 hours right? thx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
The NMB is not involved from the start, so you don't have to worry about losing them from the start. They're only involved at the end of the normal process when one or more parties seek the NMB.

Carl




Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/im...s/viewpost.gif
Regardless, the NMB is not involved in openers or negotiations until their latter stages.

Carl


So please enlighten this fool. So is your final answer in regards to the NMB:

A: "That is much sooner than the NMB normally gets involved."
B: "They're only involved at the end of the normal process when one or more parties seek the NMB."
C: "Regardless, the NMB is not involved in openers or negotiations until their latter stages."


Those would be three completely different statements/time lines. I don't waste my time teaching my dog calculus. I should do the same in having a logical discussion with Mr. Almighty Whale Captain.

You mean, after you have been assigned a trip, right?

Or are you just talking about sitting at home, waiting for a trip? Short call is not considered "Duty", nor is it "Rest", so once you get a trip, no, you are not required to go past the max duty day listed on the rotation, plus 2.

BUT...you also have to be able to look at your release time of that rotation, look back 24 hours, and be able to find 8 hours of "Rest", of which your short call time is not considered as "Rest".

To get an accurate answer, why don't you call the ALPA office and speak with one of the scheduling experts. 800 USA ALPA is the number. You'll be able to assert your contractual rights with a lot more confidence using what they tell you rather than that from some anonymous webboard pseudonym here.

What he said, and you know there is another web board called the DALPA board, which has a scheduling section. So if you run into something before 9am, or after 5pm, or on a weekend or holdiay, you can get some info from the Scheduling committee there, usually. I also keep their home phone numbers and cell phone numbers on speed dial!

Well since slow told you to call ALPA I will not answer :D j/k, call them anyway since you question is so vague.

I think I know what you are getting at, but spell it out for them.

The short answer is that domestically Whitlow applies but sitting at home does not apply to max sked duty day that is outlined in the PWA, say 13 hrs, plus two to 15.

Effectively on domestic SC you can be flown up to 15+30 from the start of your SC, plus 30 mins after block in to equal 16 hrs.

If accurate, this article gives a glimpse at the new rest rules....


FAA issues new rules on pilot fatigue - Flight 3407 - The Buffalo News

If the cargo carriers really got exempt, then it is a major loss for them, and for our underbelly freight business.

That's a pretty big leap. How do you figure that will affect our cargo (in which there's no money anyway)?

Shipping costs with cargo-only carriers will decrease which will give the cargo-only carriers an unfair advantage over us.

Again, how do you figure this? And I fyp.

Simple, they keep un-argument flights on the back side of the clock and they can work under the current rules, we can't.

meh I don't see this as that big a deal. I would think that ALPA would negotiate these rules (for FedEx at least).. if.. they are a good deal for us.. but I don't think this is at all a good deal.

You do not think that pilots will take more coin to work a few more hrs? Ha, we are our own worst enemies.

I dont understand

Maybe, maybe not. They may very well do that, but I really don't think pilot costs are gonna drastically change the landscape for pricing.

I agree. So far the little bit I've been able to scan through looks quite a bit like our PWA flight/duty limits.

This WILL have an effect on the regionals. The table limiting duty day based on start time and # of legs will challenge their schedulers/planners a bit. I would routinely have 6 leg/~8 hour/15:30 duty days. Of course that's usually achievable by having a 3-ish hour sit somewhere in the day too. This will be a dramatic QOL improvement for regional pilots that don't have the contractual protections of our PWA.

I haven't seen anything in the new rules that will prevent Delta from giving us 3 hour sits though. Our duty days are already capped at or near the new limits, so they will still probably be able to have us do productivity sits. All the more reason we need to improve our duty rigs in the next contract.

You guys haven't been paying attention, these new rules are going to create as many new jobs at DAL as the LGA slot swap!

Bring on the next Call to Action!

;^)

Ha! Very true Timbo....

I'm sure when age 70 passes, unions will be able to tout that as a job protection initiative and how it will create jobs in the looooong term:)

This will dramatically increase the costs of regionals. Many of whom are already struggling with rising fuel costs. This could put the squeeze on them.

For FedEx and UPS they get to fly what they have now, we will transition to these new rules. They can fight to go towards these rules, or they can keep what they have now and see the cost savings somewhere else. The choice will be theirs.

The way I read it is that the long domestic days/multiple turns will be limited. OTOH, international categories will take a hit because the increase from 8 to 9 hour flight time will give the ATA more European destinations done with two guys versus three and segments that were previously done with 4 guys can now be done with three (SEA-PEK).

That it will and it will lead to a need for larger gauge.

The new rules will undoubtedly reduce fatigue for regional pilots, but I doubt there will be a positive impact to their QOL.

Most regional pilots credit upwards of 80-90 hrs. It's the extra hours of credit that help the lower hourly rate create a livable paycheck.

With the new work rules the regional guys will take a cut in pay or a cut in QOL because they end up giving up days off to regain their "old-rules" take-home pay.

Many regional pilots view the new rules as the FAA coming and messing with their pay...

Cheers
George

I actually believe they are united (no pun intended) on both sides for getting a great contract. The combined operation will be a powerhouse for sure. There will be a lot of friction regarding the SLI though. How can one side that was just about to start hiring off the street merge with a side with well over 1000 on furlough when recent arbitration says furloughees go to the bottom period?

I don't see CAL offering to put furloughed UAL pilots above their active pilots yet I don't see UAL letting guys hired back in 2000-2001 be stapled to fairly recent new hires. Additionally everyone says that the CAL new hires from UAL are just place holders and won't change anything, but that could end up being a bigger can of worms than people want to think about right now.

Aside from the SLI issue, I think the two groups are probably very symbiotic and united. I just hope they hold the line on scope (50 seats and under for jets) and maybe reduce the number of larger turbo props. That, more than pay tables or anything else will be the biggest foundational support for pattern bargaining on the DL side of things.

Agreed.

On the SLI issue there is a long precedence there. It will be ugly and as a result arbitrated.

Pure speculation

Yeah but you can then bust out your own S2 and re-bump the guy's wife that bumped you in the first place.

You can then run around the gate house and do this to all the noobs staring at the boarding jumbo-tron thinking they just might get the last seat:

SUPER Epic That 70's Show Mega Burn - YouTube

You know that might be a harbinger of unintended consequences down the road too. If young pilots cannot make a liveable wage (not that they necessarily do now) due to restricted abilities to fly enough hours, there might be an exodus. And with this impending pilot shortage that we keep hearing about....

I think this will get very interesting in the next couple of years...

From 117.25:
Read it carefully. Commuting just got a whole lot more interesting. :eek: