That is one way to need a lot of west coast flying quick.

If and when DAL grows out West, it will need a lot of international connecting traffic to be supported. That will take time and money. The domestic O and D market is a no win out there. Yes, we could fly full aircraft out of there, but we would be giving the seats away. Let SWA do that. We will cherry pick our customers.

FWIW, Slow is correct here.

Umm, uhh, hmmm,...., wasn't that exactly why the NWA merger was supposed to be a good idea? Connect Europe to the Orient? I understand all of the dynamics but that was the original intent (I thought).

DAL tried to make a go of PDX and SEA, but both those bases are gone for the southside.

At that time DL did not have aircraft that could do it efficently...now we do.

Precisely. NWA did it right on the left coast and had the right equipment. Now, we have the routes and the jets. Lets rock. It kills me to see the inroads that SWA and JB have made on the west coast. We, DAL, had some great LAX to Mexico/Central America flying until the agreement with AS. Now, they get the good routes and we're back to flying the normal CONUS and Hawaii stuff.

We have some of the aircraft. In the coming years we will really have the aircraft and more importantly the type of aircraft we need to do the West Coast effectively. It is of importance and will get a lot of attention and growth, but a few facts remain.

The 330 is needed more to South America than to go saturate LAX to the Orient. The 744 is just to darn bid to effectively fill at an acceptable price to the Orient.
As we get different gauge aircraft and actually have the ability to move fleet types around, you will see the West Grow. SEA will see its dynamics shift first. Our leaders see the need for a STRONG West Coast and points to the Orient presence, but we need to make sure the foundation of this merger is strong before we start building on it. IE we need to take care of the holes on the East cost.

We are talking a few years tops. (IMHO)

Buzz JV's are good for the pilot group! :D

We've got the east coast saturated. So much so at JFK and LGA, we can't even operate effectively. There's always been a lack of will to compete on the west coast, even with costs way down following BK. We gave a huge concession to the company when we allowed the Alaska codeshare to be brought over. Those were jobs that could have broken the cycle of the endless upgrade to Capt here. No dominant carrier at LAX looks like a huge opportunity, not a reason to not grow there.

If Delta were to come in and fly on a large scale up and down the west coast they would have to compete with the likes of Alaska/Horizon, United, Southwest, Virgin America, and to some extent, Jetblue. Delta's added presence would just add more capacity and push fares lower. This code share with AS/QX allows DL to have the feed to its important Pacific flying out of SEA and LAX without jumping into what would be a money loosing battle on the west coast.

If we were to merge with AS - now, that would be a different story :)

I definitely agree with all of the above.

It's tough anywhere you go. I guess I just don't see how the fight on the East is worth it but not the West as well. I'm probably biased because I'm from there..

Jet Blue, United and Virgin have a small presence on the North/South West coast traffic. From a life long West coaster, there is only one airline doing the majority of the work and its AS.

FWIW, the central valley CA city I live in is nearing 1M people. We serve it with 3 RJs to SLC.

My wife has been in PDX for two days now. Not one seat out to SLC was open.

There are opportunities and O & D population out west. The problem is DAL is still picking the low hanging fruit and hasn't exploited those opportunities yet. West coast flying (besides N - S) involves large distances to the hubs and low yeilds.

With that said, Bob Crandall stated years ago that some markets you have to serve even with a very low yeild because those pax will eventually travel on a high yeild flight. Delta just hasn't figured that out yet.

You should have seen the routing from LAX - SFO when I had to deadhead a few months back. The World's Premier Global Airline doesn't fly between the two most popular (and I'm guessing populous) cities in CA.

PATHETIC

It's not like DL just has planes lying around doing nothing (at least ones that would be suitable for the domestic market).

With moves like re-tooling the DCA-LGA shuttle. Putting 319's on the low-yield summer NY-FL season, etc,etc I believe they are doing their best to put airplanes where they will make us the most money.

Once we get that all figured out then maybe we can start filling in the blanks. I'm actually very impressed with how things have been materializing and am glad we don't have our fingers in every market out there, especially one as over saturated as LAX-SFO (UA, AA, Southwest and Vir America)

No offense, but Hauenstein and Cortelyou are much smarter than all of us combined on "The Latest and Greatest" thread at revenue and network opportunities. Why go against UAL, SWA, and the others on LAX-SFO right now in the worst revenue market in recent history. Perhaps its better to leave the plane parked in the desert and return it to service when yields do improve.

On the east coast we do those high density cities to FL and they're not exactly profit centers for us. Delta is figuring out how to connect low yield to high yield for the most part. The big glaring exception is what's been done to the Shuttle product. That said, they are making changes but they also must balance the cost to make these changes with the horrible revenue market right now. Sometimes saving money and sitting on the sidelines and saving yourself is better than leaving your 1st string players in the game when you're leading 51-10 in the 4th.

Glad someone else realizes this.

If we tightened our scope it would force the Company to merge.

I wonder how much we paid out in vouchers and fines for over booking flights? Every flight I have seen domestically as asked for volunteers due to over booking. I was in BUF yesterday trying to get my wife home to SAT. I had to buy tickets on Airtran to get her home. Every DAL flight was oversold both legs to all destinations.

Airtran had seats and sold me a business class seat for $365! They can't be making money on that seat. SWA was completely booked too so I couln't use a Zed faire. Checked the web and DAL, AA, USair all wanted over $700.

So come September does the traffic drop off a cliff? It seems to me that right now we could put a bigger airplane on almost every leg. Will that change next month?

Agreed that they are way smarter. I'm just stating that California is not a small market. It's my opinion only that we could pick up some dedicated frequent flyers if we provided the service in some of these markets. I'm not saying try to beat UAUA or LUV, but maybe 4-5 flights a day between LAX - SFO might be in order.

When Delta tried to make PDX work as the asian gateway, we had like 1 or 2 RJs running from SFO - PDX. SFO - aisia is a hudge market. Bottom line is nothing can compete with the profits we gain domestically from ATL; it's the most profitable hub in the world. DAL gets caught up in that and while picking the low fruit maybe misses some already on the ground.

Every time there is a leadership change we hear "we're gonna grow LAX and the west coast." Take a look at the current AE. We took the brunt of the surplus considering we're only 400+ strong.

But what the hay, I've got a job and flying to places I like. Not trying to p.ss anyone off, just making conversation.

Cheers.

Yea, my wife was saying that they were giving $400 in Delta dollars to people that paid $108 for their tickets out of PDX.

The system is very close to breaking. All in all though, besides our buddies at SkyWest, the agents are doing a damned good job.

Yes, agreed, the Delta agents I have seen have been doing a good job of remaining cool. The contracted employees of the "partners" seem to be less patient. It's hard to remain calm when you have people in your face all day angry that they missed their flight.

BUF to ATL was 5 Mad Dogs, not one RJ yet every flight was oversold Airtran had two flights and both had seats available. I bought a business class refundable ticket while sitting in the airport on the web for $365. We must be kicking their butt in that market.

It all has to do on where these people are connecting to. AAI does not offer that.

All I have to say is patience. Things will start to take shape next year. They have plans to change the way we do business, but it is going to take time to make sure these plans are rolled out correctly.

[quote=DAL4EVER;659702]

No offense, but Hauenstein and Cortelyou are much smarter than all of us combined on "The Latest and Greatest" thread at revenue and network opportunities.

I sure hope so - our future depends on it.

Scoop

Except they have trimmed domestic way too far. People are getting frustrated with the over sales and full airplanes.

Frustrated, but not willing to pay more for there tickets. Talk is cheap, let them vote with their pocket books!

We need people to pay what the actual cost is, not what they would like. To do that we need to retrain them. That takes time.

FWIW,
Just came back from ACC last night. On the DH from JFK to the ATL sat next to a JFK VIP who told me to look for the news concerning LGA to break today or tomorrow. Involves swapping things with LCC but will increase our presence at LGA. LCC is floundering, cash poor and beginning to shed the only things that are valuable to them to buy themselves more time. It was explained to me that if we control the "north shore" and the "south shore" we will be able to better manage the air traffic flow in the area, and be able to smooth out the operation and solidify our position in NY market. At least that is what they hope to do.
Funny story came out of that ride too, as we taxied past the AA terminal in JFK (Ghost town), apparently, when RA came on board he approached Arpey about maybe taking that terminal off their hands because the way he saw it, they barely used it and they are losing their shirt on it. Pi$$ed Arpey off to no end, RA walked away smiling.
Bottom line, they know JFK is a mess, looking at all kinds of things to remedy problems. Even tougher in this environment. Not a whole lot of money out there to build. Would prefer something already built. We'll see.
Burn Notice

Hopefully the revenue management guys have this figured out. In the past airline managers are like crack addicts and can't price the ticket for more than it cost to operate.

I can only hope, that this team has a plan other than "hey look we made a small profit, FARE SALE!!!" It looks like they have reduced the capacity to be able to ratchet up the fares so as to make a few bucks. It's crazy out there right now. If I just went to work and didn't watch the news, I would think our economy was great.

It's not the PAX as much as it is the panic that goes on when the giant TV screen shows declining future bookings. This is not your classic macro economics 101 case: high demand + low supply = low cost. WHAT!

Good work for a guy that has been Burned.
BTW great season finally!

Your information is very good.
Last part is very good as well. Just remember that when people calm down, logic prevails, and this though a long shot is a distinct possibility.

I will be happy when this comes out, officially, as it will put some of the hyenas at bay ;)

urbane meyer won't do that... especially when Lane Kiffin comes to town.

Not that I doubt what you say. BUT, don't you think this vip would be risking his/her job(or even an sec violation) by divulging something of this magnitude?? Were they drinking(loose lips)? If so, mgmt has other problems. I hope you are right. Have not seen the JFK operation yet, but a guy I flew with recently had done JFK/FCO and was VERY impressed by the amount of large DAL metal. Reminded him of NWAs NRT operation.

I too am a native west coaster and I currently live in the PDX area and commute to SLC. Also, before coming to DL, I spent 16 years working for the Alaska Air Group. Having said that, I would love to see a stronger DL presence out here. However, I think it would be a very bad idea for DL to try to jump into the north/south market on its own given the current situation.

Like you said, AS is doing the majority of the work out here - so, by having this agreement with them, DL is able to use their extensive west coast network without having to actually compete. Wouldn't break my heart to see us merge with AS down the road though.

It is my guess that this would be the VP of the NYC op. Might not be under the same type of NDA that they guys here in ATL are. Plus, if this comes to fruition, it appears that it is a swap and really not a gain for us or them.....

Could be true. It hasn't been stopping some of the other "big wigs" up in NY from divulging the latest and greatest.

I know, they have been talking up there for three months.

Now go ask the JFK folks where we are going to move to!

ARGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! We are PAYING people to FLY US!!!!!:mad::mad:

BINGO!!!! We need to start training them now, because when oil goes back up we will have NO choice but to pass the cost on to the consumer.

We will, but we need to make sure that we are profiting from our flights at current levels. EB would love to just add the cost of fuel to the price of a ticket and not hedge. That is where we need to go. Just like every other industry!

I've been walking in circles for weeks waiting for the feeding! ;) :D

Sorry, catching up on the 'do list after a trip. Is it me or does the list seem to grow larger after each trip? Anyway, the gentleman I talked with was not drunk, just seemed to pass the info on since he was sure it was to be announced today. No worries about how it might affect things. I asked for any news, he gave it. He asked what I thought about the operation in JFK and I gave him my honest opinion....In a nutshell, no matter what plans you implement, for the size of our operation we need new real estate, period. If we want this to be a linchpin in our network, it can't be a patchwork of operations wound together with busses and peoplemovers. He seemed genuine and well informed on how JFK as an entity worked and how to try and leverage Delta into that as best we can.
As to no gain for any swaps with LCC I see a definite loss for LCC because all they have are slots in the NE. As they lose those, they lose their one thing that sets them apart from others and any power they might bring to the grown up table. JMHO.

ACL, great season, I love how Strickler got his mid-sentence.

Burn Notice

Sorry, duplicate post

Burn Notice

Yea, there is a choice. Get more from those greedy pilots.

The majority of Delta dollars given out are never used. The redemption rate a few years ago was less then 25 percent. Kind of a scam on Delta's part. Years ago they gave out actual cash. Not the case today.

Plus, I have a non-airline guy friend that flies a ton, he said he took the Delta Dollars and had to pay more then what he would have had he bought the tickets out right from priceline. Delta Dollars have to be used at Delta.com and have a bunch of other restrictions...Good to see the flying public get hosed once and not paying 108 bucks for a ticket from msp to mco