I can tell you that a CP confirmed the BOS rumor as a possibility. (Long term)

Cvg Er?
 

Had my last recurrent with Terry as my partner and he explained it to me exactly as Dragon related above. Said he presented it to RA and he wanted to know how much it would cost us. T.O. told him appx. $1mil and we would recoup that in about 18 months given the historical average of air returns. After that, it becomes a cost savings on hotels.

Now, I agree with the point about DTW, so that may make this all a moot point anyway.

Somewhat of a bummer because I often find CVG an easier option for non-revving over to the few intn'l destinations it serves, as opposed to JFK.

Lots of pilots try and make business cases for moving aircraft where they would prefer to see them. CP's offices often try and preserve or obtain more flying. Rarely does it actually happen. There are often far more factors involved. In the case of a ER category there are many other factors that have to be considered. You have only 3 departures for over half the year. The company has and does change equipement on some of the CVG flights to the 400 which means even fewer departures. You can't staff a category with those kinds of flying shifts in a economical manner. In any case the guys who make the real decisions have said it was never given any real consideration. At the moment they have far bigger fish to fry.

There is quasi-official information out on CVG being a consolidated 757/767 Domestic and ER group. Other bases to follow, ATL will be last. As the pilot above posted, there are bigger fish to fry, but the Company would like the flexibility and the ability to pull down the number of reserves needed to cover both domestic and ER categories.

The company has never even asked for this in a contract negotiation. They did not mention or ask for it in the bankruptcy contract or the new joint contract. I have heard lots of pilots talk about it however its another area that I don't think has been given any real consideration. The two ER categories at Delta are both large enough that there is no reduction or cost savings in reserves by combining the categories. The manning formula in the contract dictates how many people are required. If a category has less then about 75 lines then you can gain a bit of efficiency if it can be combined. Both ER categories are several times that size.

If they did decide to combine them they would have to deal with the jepps issue, additional training for all pilots each year and both the problems with two sets of FAR's and pilots ability to manipulate those FAR's to get paid trip drops. Add in the fact that the categories would have to be rebid under our contract and you have a training nightmare for the company when they are already looking at record training demands for the next several years with the mergers.

There is likely to be only one change in the ER flying and that will be opening a base in SEA in 2010. Anything else is mostly wishful thinking by some pilots.

Don't forget that 3rd and little known -ER category out here in LA. That would be the one base I would say it might make sense to combine the domestic and international categories.

I heard that too.
What is the thinking behind having dedicated 767 domestic separated from ER at Delta?
Saving money on WWO training and once a year checkride for domestic guys?

Many airlines have 75/76 pilots qualified and able to fly everywhere the airplane goes. Why? The only plus that reserves cover all types of flying?

Thank you.

No other airline has the level of international flying Delta does on the 7ER. The airlines that combine it generally have a large domestic operation with a small international operation. Not the case at Delta. Cheaper to do it the way we are doing it now and the reason the company has never asked once to change it. I just spoke with a ALPA rep and as of today they have never even so much as brought up the concept. Pilots keep bringing it up because some would prefer it that way. So far the company has no interest. I would love it if the company would ask for such a change because it would be a major change in the contract and the union would certainly counter with many other improvements in other areas. If the company wanted this they missed there chance when they were in Chapter 11. Did not want it and did not ask.

see below \/ \/ \/

The time frame is over three years for the conversion. They can make all of us ER guys and let us fly domestic in the ER trip packages. When all of it is in the ER package and none in the domestic package, I guess that they have done what they have wanted to do.
PBS min staffing comes to mind, but with zero block hrs it becomes a moot point. Most airlines are going this way, and DAL management feels that it is only a matter of time before DAL needs to become a combined category as well. We can resist, but NWA does it now. Of course time will tell, and it is only in the theory stage right now. No action has been taken.

Any news on hiring?
 

Any news on the hiring front for the fall? At some point in the past, someone had mentioned about 50 new hires sometime in the fall.

A LOA on the DAL side a few weeks ago took care of that. Look for hiring in the spring after the SLI is completed. Right now the number is hovering around 100. Time will tell if this pans out.

Actually, it makes more sense to have seperate categories when you have a small international operation and a large domestic operation because you only have to train a few guys to do the international stuff. As international and domestic become closer to 50/50 it becomes more cost effective to have everyone in one category. CAL has a 75/6 category that covers all the flying and even includes the 400 flying. I'd bet $50 that flight ops is looking at combining categories and I'm sure they would love to have not just the ER and domestic flying combined, but the 400 as well.

As always sailing, you fail to do your homework:

From the SLI Acceptance agreement, signed by the respective negotiating committee chairman (Haase & O'Malley) along with Mr. Campbell, DAL Exec VP - HR Labor & Communications

"This will confirm our agreement regarding the Company’s acceptance of the integrated seniority list produced either by agreement of the representatives of the respective pilot groups or by arbitration pursuant to ALPA Merger Policy. For the purposes of the Delta/Northwest Merger only and notwithstanding Section 1 D. 8. b. 1) of the PWA, the Company will accept the integrated seniority list established by the Association, provided that none of the conditions and restrictions therein 1) require a system flush whereby pilots may displace any other pilots from the latter’s position; 2) require a pilot to be compensated for flying not performed (e.g. differential pay for a position not flown); 3) bar a pilot who, at the time of implementation of an integrated seniority list, is in the process of completing or who has completed qualification training for a new position (e.g., B-777 Captain or A-319 First Officer) from being assigned to the position for which he has been trained, regardless of his relative standing on the integrated seniority list; or 4) significantly increase the Company's costs. Furthermore, a pilot will not be displaced from his position by a pilot of the other pre-merger pilot group solely as the result of the implementation of, or the expiration of, any condition or restriction. "

Nu

Nu,

Thanks for finding that. After reading this, I cannot imagine a seniority list without significant fences and other conditions and restrictions. How else could you possibly be in compliance with the above 4 bullet points without specifically stating them as a condition and/or restriction?

The last sentence is very interesting though, because the former Northwest Pilots (Red Book) just lost the last arbitration regarding the "No Bump - No Flush clause." The arbitrator ruled that in spite of what the award said, "No Bump - No Flush" no longer applies after expiration of the conditions and restrictions. He said that the words: "Solely as a result" trumped all the other words in the original award. Red Book pilots can now be bumped and flushed out of position by pilots from the other pre-merger group.

Carl

And I guarantee that the only reason they singed this is because fences will increase cost significantly. That is there out trust me.

Hiya Carl,

Yup. As a blue guy, I refuse to take sides on this. However, the red book guys were masters at selling "expectations" and making it stick. Those same people are now crafting our arbitration positions.

Even a five year fence will open up the SLI to multitudes of arbitrations, especially when in comes to "replacement aircraft". It will bring the bidding process to a complete halt.

With no fences, there will have to be compensation in some other form. I forsee a tiered solution.

Nu

Actually, their costs will be greatly increased without fences. No fences will mean the ability for one group to completely replace another group over time. That equates to big training costs. It makes no financial sense to have one group who is trained on the equipment, to be replaced by another group who is not trained.

Any attempt by DAL management to deny the results of the arbitration panel's award will result in massive lawsuits. DAL will be greatly disadvantaged in the lawsuits because they will be in the unenviable position of arguing to a judge that the results of a 3 judge panel should be thrown out. They would almost certainly lose, and the case will cost them a fortune.

Carl

5 year base and equipment fences would do a lot to ease the transition into this cluster. Any idea what would happen if we did get fences and the company transfered equipment or closed/opened bases? Not sure of the specifics but I think there were fences around some of the Western bases after the DL/Western merger?? Not that we're going to have any say on anything that happens but anyone have a historical perspective on the pros and cons of fences? Seems like a no-brainer to me so far.

Heyas H50,

After the fence goes up, the very first new type on the property will be a "replacement aircraft". I guarentee it.

DAL gets airplane
DAL staffs airplane
The NWMC or DLMC takes it to arbitration, claiming it's a "replacement" aircraft that should be staffed from its side only.
Arbitration comes down forcing the airline to flush everyone it just trained and re-train a whole new set of pilots.

Lather, rinse, repeat...

Nu

I understand but to my knowledge no other group has had the problems NW/Republic had with fences and it seems that conditions/restrictions are a part of most mergers. Could it have had something to do with the 20 year or so duration? I'm not sure any new type would come on property in the next 5 years but if say the company replaced 787s with 777s as well as DC-9s with 737s, it seems like that would be addressed in the initial SLI agreement to me.

I see fences as avoiding a lot more expense, problems, and uncertainty than they create. For example they could be the solution to you taking advantage of your greater near term retirements. Whatever they come up with I hope they can implement a smart ruling that learns from past mistakes and protects status quo to the extent possible.

It seems that you DAL/NWA guys will have the enviable problem of arguing over who gets to fly the shiny new jets, and who will have the higher net gain in seniority once the inevitable hiring takes place. Try not to ***** too loud, not every airline is as well positioned, especially these last few days.

Actually the problem with the NWO/Republic merger was Roberts put "stuff" into the award that no one asked for. Also, he couldn't write so everything was open to interpertation......which, of course, he would resolve with another poorly written award.

As Nu said, rinse and repeat. Both red and green got to write lots of checks to old man Roberts. I understand the guys we have are real good and we should have it right the first time.

Oh, and yes, there will be conditions and restrictions.........how long will be up to the board.

Good discussion,
Ferd

Depending on those conditions and restrictions, I can see DAL jets and NWA jets move in to each others bases. I cannot see DAL willingly Deadhead people for three to five years until there can be an open bid.

Time will tell.

Depends on how you build patterns. For example, on the -400 side it would be real easy to build it into the patterns DTW-->NRT-->ATL--NRT-->DTW. What is done now to cover MSP, HNL etc.

I'm sure a "pickup and drop clause" is being discussed. What I mean is, if they move (for example) the -400 or 777, you could go to where they move it to or use your seniority to move where you can hold........inside the conditions and restrictions of course.

But, your right, time will tell. Is it November yet?

We (Delta) does that now on the 767ER, so I imagine we could see that on the 747-400.

There are trips like JFK-AMS-CVG-AMS-JFK, ATL-MAN-JFK-MAN-ATL, that kind of thing. The CVG flying is because even though there is a 757/767 base in CVG, it's domestic only. There aren't enough flights to make it an international base I guess. The reason ATL 7ER pilots fly a trip through JFK is that JFK is short of pilots.

I think this is how we'll fly out of each other's bases for a while - JFK pilots doing 767ER flights out of DTW, or A330 doing flights out of JFK, B744 pilots doing flights out of ATL.

Problem is the shift of the 7ER to SEA. We do not have enough domestic frequency to do that, unless every leg to SEA is done by an ER crew. That is from JFK and ATL.

Yup, same problem on our side if they move the 330 to JFK. Especially if it's the SEA base they want to pick up and drop.

Devils in the details eh?

From what I am getting there will be some DHing around, we will see what type of restrictions there are on the SLI. Those are the details that are really important on how our bases will be realigned.

With the side letter Delta sided with regards to Midwest, whats to keep Midwest pilots from being used to fly E-190's on Delta and Northwest domestic routes and replacing all the DC-9's and MD-88's.

ACL, I believe you may correct in this assumption. It's already being reported.


MINNEAPOLIS - Within months of Delta's buyout of Northwest, the airline will begin shifting its planes around to put them on the right routes, a Delta executive said on Wednesday.
The two fleets will operate separately until after the federal government signs off on a joint operating certificate, which could take much of next year. But they don't have to wait that long to shift planes to different routes, with the potential for Northwest 747s to fly out of Atlanta, for instance.
"We can move our planes around as soon as the merger is complete," said Joanne Smith, Delta Air Lines Inc.'s senior vice president of in-flight service, speaking at a breast cancer fundraiser at a Northwest Airlines Corp. hangar on Wednesday.
The airlines hope to close the deal by the end of this year. Smith said they expect to begin shifting planes during the second quarter, which runs through the end of June 2009.
Northwest and Delta have only the Boeing 757 in common. Beyond that, their mainline fleet is a stew of Northwest's 100 to 125-seat DC-9s up to its 747s. Delta's fleet, meanwhile, includes the 767, with 287 seats.
Initially, the crews will follow the airplane. So if Northwest's 747s move to Atlanta, 747 flight attendants based at Northwest hubs could be forced to commute. That's because the Federal Aviation Administration requires them to be trained on the particular plane on which they're working.
Smith said Delta will try to minimize the disruption, adding, "Moving flight attendants to fly the airplane in this industry is not unusual."
Delta executives have said they believe they can get $2 billion in cost savings by joining the airlines. Matching the right planes to the right routes is an important part of that savings, Smith said.
"We've got to do that. It's in everybody's best interest," she said.
The airlines will also be making their food offerings the same. So does that mean Delta coach customers will have to give up their free snack, or will Northwest travelers again get one for free?
"You know, I think I know the answer, but I'm pretty sure we haven't shared that yet," said Julie Showers, Northwest's senior vice president for in-flight services.
Last week shareholders at both companies approved the stock swap. The main remaining hurdles are antitrust clearance by the Department of Justice, and a lawsuit seeking to stop the deal which is set for trial Nov. 5 in San Francisco.
Copyright 2008 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
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Because the company cannot operate any midwest equipment with DL or NW code on it. It's scoped.

Deleted - posted to wrong thread

I think you will see in the coming months what I, and a few other have predicted on here. It is better than the alternative, and that is good for all of us.
Dead heading will sucks, but hey at least we are getting paid, right?

October DAL AE
 

Anyone heard what the AE that is due out will contain? Anything for LAX :D Or I should say ANYTHING GOOD for LAX.

Delta guys,

Does Delta have HUD on any of the aircraft? Someone told me they thought you had HUD on the 777's and some 737's. What's the real scoop?

Carl

737, Capt side only.

All 737's have huds on the CA's side only. No plans at the moment to add them to other fleets. Mod is planned to go to a glass cockpit in the 757's and 767's.

Thanks guys.

Carl

Any dates you've heard on the flat panel mods for the 75/76? Any discussion of EFBs?