Adolphus Coors

If you read what I wrote you see that I never said that pilots who are trained part 61 are bad pilots or we should take their certificates. I simply said that they did not train under a standardized training program. Part 61 outlines the requirements to be eligible for the certificate or rating and the PTS is the standard by which all pilots are judged. HOWEVER this does not mean it is effective. I have signed off 47 students who trained under both part 61 and 141. When I left the part 141 school for the part 61 school there was a massive difference. The part 61 students I checked were trained to pass a DE's check ride not the PTS and there knowledge during orals was no where near as in depth as those from 141 schools. Like it or not part 61 is train to pass the local DEs check ride not the PTS. I'm sorry if you think passing a DE's check ride makes you standardized and means you have complied with the PTS, but it doesn't.

In many areas there is a very high fail rate among CFI candidates. Why? Because this is the one part 61 check ride were you can not choose your DE. The FAA chooses him for you.

Why are there so many teddy bear DEs out there? It's a business and they want as many students as they can get. They don't want the reputation of being a ball buster. The FAA looks the other way because they want to promote aviation.

There are people who fly airplanes and than there are pilots. Unfortunately there are too many people who fly airplanes among our ranks.

Commercial pilot candidates should be held to very high standards. Letting some DE judge whether this candidate is worthy in a 1.5 hour flight and a 2 hour at best oral is not the answer.

I know many outstanding part 61 trained pilots out there. That does not mean part 61 is an effective and safe way to train commercial pilots!

Adolphus Coors

NOPE. This causes airlines to fly with less pilots which means no more small RJs. So sad I know. It also makes start up carriers less likely to succeed. This is also sad huh?

In reality what Rhino suggests will ultimately lead to job security and and better pay. O ya and more than likely safer skies

Dash8widget

I guess my experience with part 61, 141 and DE's is just different than yours. I'm sorry that you came across so many "teddy bear" DE's and students who were trained to pass a specific DE's check ride. I guess that I was fortunate in my career to NOT have such experiances. Though I've never been a DE (just an APD), I have many friends who are, and I know that they do not compromise on their check rides for the sake of good business. They all have had issued their share of pink slips, and are still popular DE's. But again, maybe I'm just lucky. Oh, and in my experiance, the FAA doesn't just look away. I personally know of two local DE's who had their designations pulled for not meeting standards.

Granted that there is probably less variance in the quality of part 141 schools, variance still exists (there have been some pretty bad 141 schools out there). A competent instructor under 61 will put out just as good a pilot as a 141 program.

The problem isnt the system for training and certifying pilots, even at the commercial pilot level (and I mean commercial pilot certificate, not airline pilots).

slowplay

If Delta pilots gave away scope, then how did you get a job? Same question for Super...

You guys are too new to remember when we truly had no scope. ASA was flying BAE-146 with 88 and 100 seats. Ron Allen threatened to transfer all the 737-200 flying to Comair (and the threat was real).

Yet we managed to hire nearly 1000 pilots in the last two years with no furloughs. ASA and CMR have pilots on furlough. Compass is capped at 36 jets. The total number of 70-76 seat jets is capped. The total number of 76 seat jets is capped unless mainline grows. Over 130 RJ-50's will have been parked by the end of 2009 (20 of them coming from ASA this year).

Reality is a little different than your statement.

Superpilot92

That doesnt account for now and in the near future when the time comes to replace md88s and dc9s. attrition has caused hiring not so much growth at DAL and NWA. Look at DALs/NWA's prechapter 11 seniority lists to see the problem. DAL had a bunch more pilots and nwa had over 6000 pilots just in 2005. NWA has about 5000 now.

its a huge issue even though the regionals are getting hit also. reality is a little different than youu statement

Dash8widget

I understand where you are coming from, your arguments just don't match what has happened in reality. That last big hiring cycle is a good example. After 9/11 the airlines were hit hard; lots of furloughs at the majors, big cuts in pay, etc. As a result, fewer people started perusing airline careers and enrollment in flight schools took a hit. Then things started to turn around. The airlines started hiring again and the regionals were growing and loosing pilots at the same time. So, the regionals had to start hiring in large numbers. But they found that the supply of well qualified pilots was much less than in years past. So what happened? The regionals began lowering their hiring requiments significantly.

Notice that they did not start parking rj's for lack of pilots - they just lowered the bar.

RJ's (at the regional level) are not the result of there being too many pilots out there - they are the result of agreements made by short sighted major airline pilot unions giving up scope for better pay. Job security and better pay will come from scope protection, NOT from cutting the number of commercial pilots coming from part 61 programs!

sailingfun

When you look at the pre chapter 11 seniority lists also look at the work rules and pilot utilization. Pre Chapter 11 the average Delta pilot flew 600 block hours a year. Post chapter 11 with the new contract the average pilot flies in excess of 800 block hours per year. That is better then a 25% improvement in productivity. We had just over 10,000 pilots. With a 25% improvement in productivity you are down to 7500 pilots. Want to know where the jobs went? WORK RULES!

bigdaddie

I'd get more "bang for my buck" by keeping the 1.95% plus the assessments and just buy booze with it. With Moak and friends in power combined with the economy and rising oil prices, we're screwed.

So I would like to make a motion that we stop paying dues today, buy your drink of favor and party at my house. Golf and water sports are included.

AND if you ask why I don't do something about it and take up a Union possition: it's quite simple. I'm too busy drinking, playing golf, and enjoying water sports.

Superpilot92

i dont disagree but the fact remains that both the airlines have shrank. while the regionals experienced explosive growth. We have half the number of dc9s and all the small 737s are gone at DAL, also lots of heavies have been parked. Scope is a huge issue no matter how you slice or dice it.

vprMatrix

Let me see, are you saying that the Delta Scope is good or just that is is better than no scope at all???

FYI, all of the 737-200 flying was transfered (yes, i know not the specific flight). Where are the 737-200s? What aircraft replaced them? Where are the 727s? What aircraft replaced them? What city pair did these aircraft fly? What aircraft currently fly these routes.

I think that we would have been better off to let ASA keep their few 146s and stop the 500 other RJs, 222 of these having seat mile cost better than DC9s and equal to MD88s. For next months schedule there are still more RJs in the Delta fleet count than there are mainline aircraft. (excluding NW and there regional feeders)

Do you honestly believe that there would not have been a lot more hiring than 1000 in the last 7 years if the number of RJs haddn't grown to 500?


BTW those 20 RJs at ASA will be around a little bit longer than you said but at least they will be going, unless Delta changes their mind and keeps them around for a few extra years like they did wth the ATRs.