[QUOTE=alfaromeo;1140684]I don't know if it is worth responding, because even when you are corrected on your facts, you continue to repeat falsehoods. It seems like you might be a more effective advocate if you would simply stick to the facts.

1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.

http://static.flickr.com/1247/1077948028_37e83f53ae.jpg

Anybody notice all of those EMB-175s running around? Yeah, the plane sucks. Just imagine if Compass could fly the EMB-190, add a bunch more seats pretty much for the same cost. I'm sure if we gave up some scope Delta would order them. What do yall think?

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviatio.../4/1932447.jpg

Yeah, that plane sucks. Delta hates them... flown by Double Breasted Suit wearing Van Admirals. :rolleyes:

Couple of questions:

1. When the whole Compass thing was going on a few years back, and there was a website dedicated to it, out of curiosity was anyone at the MEC level referring to E190s/CRJ900s (how that's one plane on the pay rate I don't know) and other regional jets as FLAPS? And what does FLAPS mean? F-ing Little Airplane Pilots or Airplanes? I never understood but it seemed as if there was some extreme hostility directed towards these aircraft and/or the pilots that fly them or used to fly them and are here now complaining about outsourcing.

And the thing is sure ALPA doesn't have anything to do with fleet orders but go back to the inception of the CRJ-100, could something have been done to prevent this mess then? If so, then ALPA can have a hand if it wants.

2. As to UAL negotiating Delta's contract... could DAL pilots flow to UAL though?

I don't know if there is a partnership with DAL to outsource, but isn't there a partnership in essence between ALPA and DALPA as well as the other ALPA carriers who are flying is outsourced too?

And who was it that said regional jets were good for mainline pilots?

Well, Bar, he's got a point. We do need to work on your love of the MD-88. Just saying.

Does anyone have a picture of those billboards Delta was running in downtown Atlanta on I-85 featuring the EMB-175s? It's the same shot of the E-jet as below but I swear sometimes it didn't even say anything about regional jets, just "Delta Air Lines..."

http://9.mshcdn.com/wp-content/uploa...Delta-home.png

I'm looking for a pic but can't find one. I'd taken a picture but it is I-85 in downtown ATL and the venturi effect doesn't allow picture taking.

Anyone remember this?

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3427/3...66d_z.jpg?zz=1

FTB;

Get back in line! :eek:

There are lots of ways to apply pressure besides a strike.

Stating a persons position within an organization is not outing. Most of us state our positions with the company under our avatars. Alfaromeo is a member of one of our MEC committees. That's what he does, it's not who he is. And when he makes the disrespectful, hostile and false statements that he makes, it's important for folks to know the organization that this is coming from.

Carl

Hard Landing in CVG
 

Passenger: Landing At CVG Caused Parts Of Plane To Fall - Cincinnati News Story - WLWT Cincinnati

Oops ... glad everyone is ok.

I did not, nor do I, walk away from that statement. ASA, Comair and Compass all brought 100 seat types to the table and in every case the Delta MEC has either voted to divest them, or to deny them a Policy Implementation Date for their merger request. Again, regardless of whether management would have, or would not have, merged the airlines, the MEC spoke its intentions via recorded votes.Delta has bought the airplanes that ALPA has allowed to be outsourced.The vote was at the ALPA Board of Director's meeting October, 2000, on the 15th I believe. As for the second part of your statement, what say you on Bil Swelbar's article which recounts the same history? You call it "conspiracy" but it is just pattern bargaining.On Friday, October 9, 2009, the Delta MEC (after a series of re-writes) chose the verbiage to "restructure" Compass outside of the Delta MEC. The vote went along pre-merger lines and was the first split vote of our MEC if I am not mistaken.This isn't about you (as far as I know). You personalized it. The NWA scope section and their negotiations are part of our contract. You and I agree, NWA set up Compass in a very flawed form and my allegation is that they did it for the exact same reasons we outsourced small jet flying here (and at United for that matter).

As for Delta's negotiation notes, they were subpoenaed by Counsel for the Comair and ASA pilots in their class action suit (which I refused to join). However, I did read nearly everything they posted on their web site including the depositions which reviewed these negotiators' notes. Since you seem to enjoy challenges, I'll ask again, you want me to see if I can get that atty to give us a copy?

If someone reads my post and thinks a bomb is aimed at any one individual, then they are the one with the problem. I have no clue who you are.

Interesting debate, if the personal attacks are ignored. I'm usually impressed with the intelligence of alfaromeo's posts, and feel like his "BS" calls probably are accurate in at least reining in speculative comments. I've been on the inside of decisions before, then had to listen to what SOUNDS like intelligent discussion about it later which is in fact totally uninformed and bogus... so I can empathize with his getting heated when he perceives hindsight comments to be false and discrediting. On the other hand, I'm almost 100% impressed with Bar's posts--while he may not have been present at the actual decisions, and may in fact be completely wrong about what went down and was in folks minds, at least he's intelligently thinking about it, and CLEARLY studying the issues about 1000 times more than the "average line guy". Of COURSE he's not spot-on in his after-action analysis all the time, who ever is about anything--but my gosh at least he's obviously studying and trying!

For alfa, please remember that probably 95% of the readers here don't post on these topics, many because we don't feel sufficiently informed to express a valid opinion--but we DO READ intelligently debated comments and form opinions, and your counter-point posts provide a strong grounding and anchor... and usually make me think "hmm, I like to see my ALPA guys are being calmer and more intellectually rigorous and demanding proof, I sure don't want some wild-man representing me, calm and lawyerly, good." And usually I think "Hmm, I wish Bucking Bar was on the Negotiating Committee..." also.

One totally deserved kudo though, the entire debate aside, am I the only one that thinks this was just an awesome phrase, despite being out of place here? I'm SO waiting to use this (modified) on someone! I just hope I don't succumb and try it out on my wife before I get to use it on a buddy during some heavy drinking!
Best Phrase of the Month:
"Sometimes you have a decent insight ... and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.". LOL ;)

Roadkill,

Witness testimony is notoriously flawed. The human mind tends to logically fill in the blanks. After a short period of time details are changed from reality. Also, many get caught up in the political spin machine. Just watched a show on the Concorde crash. Pilot witness statements were predictably different and you could guess where they were going the instant you heard a British, or French, accent.

Aviation Safety Investigators look for objective data.

In this debate, it is my opinion readers would be better served to look at the actual votes and objective results.

Perhaps the reason for the cognitive dissonance around here was the Comair and ASA litigation which made the Delta MEC very careful (and even a little paranoid) regarding its communications in general and scope positions in specific.