Sick leave interpretation?
07-08-2015, 05:17 AM
#21
Banned
Joined APC: Apr 2010
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
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I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
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I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 05:18 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 4,921
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 05:26 AM
#23
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by StripAlert
Hi Lurking,
Welcome, and thanks for posting. I think you're on the right track, but you may need to tweak your numbers and assumptions a bit. Your conclusions are valid nonetheless, and I think that explains why so many of us are so fired up about this particular portion of the TA.
Regarding hours per day, 8 is probably not a good average, as it is approaching the maximum (which—only under specific circumstances—is limited by FAR 117 to 9 per day for un-augmented domestic ops). You could use various numbers here, ranging from just under 4 hours per day (the prorated value of a reserve on-call day, depending on the number of days in a particular bid month), to 5.25 (the average daily guarantee), 2.75 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 1,000 hours per rolling 365 days), or 3.5 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 100 hours per rolling 28 days—technically 672 hours). As you can see, a case can be made for using a wide range of numbers, and a writer may choose depending on the conclusion desired... Gotta love statistics. If I were making your case, I'd probably use 5.25, because it's the minimum that a rotation could be worth per day. Delta and ALPA could probably tell you the actual average daily credit, but I don't think it's published anywhere.
Allowed sick leave usage, as defined by a pilot's sick bank, isn't 100 hours per year. That's the current limit of un-verified sick usage, before the occurrence must be verified. A pilot's sick bank is determined by years of service (longevity), with the majority of the pilot group allotted 240 hours annually, although the most senior have 270. The pilots who are dubiously referred to by Delta and ALPA as "abusers" are likely using far more than 100 hours per year on a consistent basis.
However, the assertion by the "there are abusers" crowd isn't that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of their allotted hours. Rather, it's that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of the sick leave taken by the entire pilot group as a whole. Just want to clear that up. I don't personally believe that this indicates sick leave "abuse." Every year, there are pilots who have serious injuries or illnesses, and who totally exhaust their annual sick leave allotment before going on disability.
If you look at the language in Section 14 of the TA, you'll see that non-flying days are counted as sick days only if they lie between two or more rotations that were also counted as sick days for the same illness, and, even in that case, only for the medical release thresholds, and not for the verification thresholds. (Another big problem with sick leave in this TA is that even a lawyer can't understand what the rules actually are. It's overly-complex.)
Notwithstanding the foregoing (I can't tell you how long I've waited for an attorney to turn up here, so I could write that), the issue is that there aren't actually sick leave abusers. If there were, and if the company could prove it, DALPA would put pressure on those pilots to knock it off, and, failing that, Delta could terminate them. Problem is, aside from a few that have been disciplined, Delta is unable to actually prove any sick leave "abuse."
Instead, what they are calling "abuse" is actually "increased use" of contractual sick leave benefits. For the reasons you've already identified, there are valid explanations for why this may have gone up since Contract 2012. In addition, C2012 removed a provision where a pilot would only be paid 75% of his hourly rate after crossing a rolling three-year sick leave usage threshold, which has probably resulted in less guys flying sick, rather than more staying home healthy, as the company and DALPA would have us believe.
In other words, the provisions of TA 2015 are designed to make legitimate sick leave use more onerous, for the sole purpose of reducing sick leave use. Not abuse, but use. It's a thinly-veiled attempt to control costs and mitigate a manning problem (of their own making) by pressuring pilots to come to work when they're only "a little sick" because it would involve both non-trivial effort and expense to verify a minor illness.
Currently, a pilot who is, say, in a car accident and spends 12 days in the hospital, missing 2-3 trips, can voluntarily verify that illness or injury, and not have it count against his 100 un-verified hours. Under the new TA, that verification is neither required nor permitted until the pilot exceeds 14 missed work days in a rolling year, meaning that in six months, when that pilot comes down with a cold or other minor illness and calls in sick for a 3-day trip, he'll have to see a doctor (at his own expense) to verify an illness that could've easily been treated with over-the-counter meds.
This doesn't even touch on the topic of the medical records release provisions, which raise significant privacy and health data bleed concerns (think personal physician to employer to FAA) that should never happen without the pilot's consent.
Welcome, and thanks for posting. I think you're on the right track, but you may need to tweak your numbers and assumptions a bit. Your conclusions are valid nonetheless, and I think that explains why so many of us are so fired up about this particular portion of the TA.
Regarding hours per day, 8 is probably not a good average, as it is approaching the maximum (which—only under specific circumstances—is limited by FAR 117 to 9 per day for un-augmented domestic ops). You could use various numbers here, ranging from just under 4 hours per day (the prorated value of a reserve on-call day, depending on the number of days in a particular bid month), to 5.25 (the average daily guarantee), 2.75 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 1,000 hours per rolling 365 days), or 3.5 (prorated from the FAR 117 limit of 100 hours per rolling 28 days—technically 672 hours). As you can see, a case can be made for using a wide range of numbers, and a writer may choose depending on the conclusion desired... Gotta love statistics. If I were making your case, I'd probably use 5.25, because it's the minimum that a rotation could be worth per day. Delta and ALPA could probably tell you the actual average daily credit, but I don't think it's published anywhere.
Allowed sick leave usage, as defined by a pilot's sick bank, isn't 100 hours per year. That's the current limit of un-verified sick usage, before the occurrence must be verified. A pilot's sick bank is determined by years of service (longevity), with the majority of the pilot group allotted 240 hours annually, although the most senior have 270. The pilots who are dubiously referred to by Delta and ALPA as "abusers" are likely using far more than 100 hours per year on a consistent basis.
However, the assertion by the "there are abusers" crowd isn't that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of their allotted hours. Rather, it's that 20% of the pilots are using 50% of the sick leave taken by the entire pilot group as a whole. Just want to clear that up. I don't personally believe that this indicates sick leave "abuse." Every year, there are pilots who have serious injuries or illnesses, and who totally exhaust their annual sick leave allotment before going on disability.
If you look at the language in Section 14 of the TA, you'll see that non-flying days are counted as sick days only if they lie between two or more rotations that were also counted as sick days for the same illness, and, even in that case, only for the medical release thresholds, and not for the verification thresholds. (Another big problem with sick leave in this TA is that even a lawyer can't understand what the rules actually are. It's overly-complex.)
Notwithstanding the foregoing (I can't tell you how long I've waited for an attorney to turn up here, so I could write that), the issue is that there aren't actually sick leave abusers. If there were, and if the company could prove it, DALPA would put pressure on those pilots to knock it off, and, failing that, Delta could terminate them. Problem is, aside from a few that have been disciplined, Delta is unable to actually prove any sick leave "abuse."
Instead, what they are calling "abuse" is actually "increased use" of contractual sick leave benefits. For the reasons you've already identified, there are valid explanations for why this may have gone up since Contract 2012. In addition, C2012 removed a provision where a pilot would only be paid 75% of his hourly rate after crossing a rolling three-year sick leave usage threshold, which has probably resulted in less guys flying sick, rather than more staying home healthy, as the company and DALPA would have us believe.
In other words, the provisions of TA 2015 are designed to make legitimate sick leave use more onerous, for the sole purpose of reducing sick leave use. Not abuse, but use. It's a thinly-veiled attempt to control costs and mitigate a manning problem (of their own making) by pressuring pilots to come to work when they're only "a little sick" because it would involve both non-trivial effort and expense to verify a minor illness.
Currently, a pilot who is, say, in a car accident and spends 12 days in the hospital, missing 2-3 trips, can voluntarily verify that illness or injury, and not have it count against his 100 un-verified hours. Under the new TA, that verification is neither required nor permitted until the pilot exceeds 14 missed work days in a rolling year, meaning that in six months, when that pilot comes down with a cold or other minor illness and calls in sick for a 3-day trip, he'll have to see a doctor (at his own expense) to verify an illness that could've easily been treated with over-the-counter meds.
This doesn't even touch on the topic of the medical records release provisions, which raise significant privacy and health data bleed concerns (think personal physician to employer to FAA) that should never happen without the pilot's consent.
I will have to disagree with the notion we don't have abuse. I flew with one FO as a example who explained how he exceeds 300k a year. He uses what he termed tactical sick drops to increase GS's. I know another pilot with a full time second job. He sicks out to cover that job. I once had a copilot who just came out of the office and when the RP stated we did not have sick leave abuse laughed so hard I thought he was going to choke! He then proceeded to give example after example. I suggested we fire those guys and he talked about why that is virtually impossible for the company and when they do the abuser almost always gets his job back with back pay. You would think if a pilot only bids turns but every other month over a two year period bid a high time 4 day domestic and sicked out of every one you could terminate him but that's not the case. You would think a pilot who over 5 years had sicked out only on weekends and every single holiday he could not bid off would be fired. Again not the case. I could go on and on.
The real problem is finding a solution that curbs abuse but does not penalize the majority of the pilot group who use the sick leave as intended. The TA falls dramatically short in that regard.
07-08-2015, 05:54 AM
#24
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2011
Position: retired 767(dl)
Posts: 5,724
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 05:55 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Permanently scarred
Posts: 1,707
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 06:01 AM
#26
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: 73NA
Posts: 49
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 06:23 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by MOTOJOE
So we all no there is no abuse. When your sick your sick. That's why delta gives us 270 hours every year. Hers the scary part! I have talked to our negotiators, and there is no sick verification form as of yet! That wasn't negotiated. They told me it will be hashed out after TA passes. What! How can something that important not be finished. This is very bad. Vote No!
But... this TA is not the answer, thus my NO vote.
07-08-2015, 06:26 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Left seat of a little plane
Posts: 2,397
Originally Posted by BobZ
Saying there is sick leave abuse is like saying if you don't cash your full paycheck.....there is payroll abuse.
sick leave is an earned component of each pilots compensation. It should be highly insulting for any party to insinuate using earned compensation is somehow 'abuse' or otherwise undeserved.
How about this idea.....we agree to zero paid sick leave.....all delta has to do in exchange is increase each pilots monthly credit by the number of hours that would have previously been earned as sick leave?
See....problem solved. No more sick leave abuse. Its a 'win-win' all the way around.
sick leave is an earned component of each pilots compensation. It should be highly insulting for any party to insinuate using earned compensation is somehow 'abuse' or otherwise undeserved.
How about this idea.....we agree to zero paid sick leave.....all delta has to do in exchange is increase each pilots monthly credit by the number of hours that would have previously been earned as sick leave?
See....problem solved. No more sick leave abuse. Its a 'win-win' all the way around.
Sick leave is NOT part of your compensation. It is for when you are sick. The 270 hours is a buffer for the rare out-for-three-months sicknesses, or just a bad year in general (which is just going to happen eventually).
It is not meant to be used fully year after year... but miraculously these guys never-ending go on short term disability. What an amazing coincidence!
07-08-2015, 06:26 AM
#30
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 329
You can discuss sick policy all you want...how do I say this? THERE IS NO SICK VERIFICATION FORM YET! Buy our negotiators leaving this on the table till after the TA is passed you or I do not know how extensive the process of verifying your sick could be. This is a big can of worms.
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