Sick leave interpretation?
07-08-2015, 06:28 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by mesaba13
Easy fix take away the double time when you call in sick the same month you green slipped in.
07-08-2015, 06:29 AM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,273
Originally Posted by MOTOJOE
You can discuss sick policy all you want...how do I say this? THERE IS NO SICK VERIFICATION FORM YET! Buy our negotiators leaving this on the table till after the TA is passed you or I do not know how extensive the process of verifying your sick could be. This is a big can of worms.
07-08-2015, 06:38 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Position: Representing the REAL Delta
Posts: 857
Originally Posted by KnotSoFast
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I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
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I am not a new hire. I find it equally disturbing that a new hire can be so bitter so quickly. I bet you could still get rehired to your old 747 Ca freight job since you seem to find it so unacceptable here.
.
07-08-2015, 07:07 AM
#35
Super Moderator
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: DAL 330
Posts: 6,868
Originally Posted by sailingfun
Thank you for writing a far more balanced review of the sick leave program then normally appears here. You have basically stated why I am leaning to a no vote.
I will have to disagree with the notion we don't have abuse. I flew with one FO as a example who explained how he exceeds 300k a year. He uses what he termed tactical sick drops to increase GS's. I know another pilot with a full time second job. He sicks out to cover that job. I once had a copilot who just came out of the office and when the RP stated we did not have sick leave abuse laughed so hard I thought he was going to choke! He then proceeded to give example after example. I suggested we fire those guys and he talked about why that is virtually impossible for the company and when they do the abuser almost always gets his job back with back pay. You would think if a pilot only bids turns but every other month over a two year period bid a high time 4 day domestic and sicked out of every one you could terminate him but that's not the case. You would think a pilot who over 5 years had sicked out only on weekends and every single holiday he could not bid off would be fired. Again not the case. I could go on and on.
The real problem is finding a solution that curbs abuse but does not penalize the majority of the pilot group who use the sick leave as intended. The TA falls dramatically short in that regard.
I will have to disagree with the notion we don't have abuse. I flew with one FO as a example who explained how he exceeds 300k a year. He uses what he termed tactical sick drops to increase GS's. I know another pilot with a full time second job. He sicks out to cover that job. I once had a copilot who just came out of the office and when the RP stated we did not have sick leave abuse laughed so hard I thought he was going to choke! He then proceeded to give example after example. I suggested we fire those guys and he talked about why that is virtually impossible for the company and when they do the abuser almost always gets his job back with back pay. You would think if a pilot only bids turns but every other month over a two year period bid a high time 4 day domestic and sicked out of every one you could terminate him but that's not the case. You would think a pilot who over 5 years had sicked out only on weekends and every single holiday he could not bid off would be fired. Again not the case. I could go on and on.
The real problem is finding a solution that curbs abuse but does not penalize the majority of the pilot group who use the sick leave as intended. The TA falls dramatically short in that regard.
Sailing,
Very good post. I would agree that there are some Pilots who probably abuse sick leave, but I think the company is trying to portray it as rampant when in actuality the cases you highlight are probably very rare.
First of all this TA needs to be defeated and then we can get serious about changing/improving our sick leave.
I would suggest a panel of Delta Pilots that at the companies request can be be empowered to review questionable sick leave occurrences.
The panel can be authorized to take specific actions if it agrees with the company. For example a first confirmed abuse could be handled with a written warning. The second time the panel agrees with the company it can for example dock a Pilot 25% of the pay for the rotation in question etc. Penalties could progressively ramp up. The built in protection of this system is that it would require Line Pilots to review the case and agree with the company before any action can be taken,
This way we wouldn't have a whole bureaucracy potentially looking into our Pilots medical history and Pilots sick leave usage would be evaluated by Line Pilots. If guys were blatantly abusing sick leave they would wise up and the average Pilot would not be pressured to not call in sick.
OBTW - It took about 2 minutes to come up with this idea. I'm sure it is not perfect, but imagine how good of a solution we could come to if a bunch of volunteer Pilots, mostly non-DALPA line pilots, formed a committee to review and recommend changes to our sick leave policy.
This whole TA is a rushed and shoddy product and if it passes we will be regretting it for a very long time.
Scoop
Last edited by Scoop; 07-08-2015 at 09:28 AM.
07-08-2015, 07:11 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: Hates Commuting
Posts: 888
Originally Posted by mesaba13
Easy fix take away the double time when you call in sick the same month you green slipped in.
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I don't find that a acceptable solution. You are still penalizing non abusers. The new TA proposes something like that by applying the sick out trip to FAR's. Again not acceptable!
07-08-2015, 07:38 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: Against
Posts: 275
Originally Posted by sailingfun
I suggested we fire those guys and he talked about why that is virtually impossible for the company and when they do the abuser almost always gets his job back with back pay. You would think if a pilot only bids turns but every other month over a two year period bid a high time 4 day domestic and sicked out of every one you could terminate him but that's not the case. You would think a pilot who over 5 years had sicked out only on weekends and every single holiday he could not bid off would be fired. Again not the case. I could go on and on.
The real problem is finding a solution that curbs abuse but does not penalize the majority of the pilot group who use the sick leave as intended. The TA falls dramatically short in that regard.
The real problem is finding a solution that curbs abuse but does not penalize the majority of the pilot group who use the sick leave as intended. The TA falls dramatically short in that regard.
Also, I don't think that the few real abusers are going to be hindered in the least by this TA. (Maybe the dropped rotation counting to FAR limits initially, but with the GS deluge that's brewing, I'd bet they can get one even once they go to the bottom of the pile.) And as you pointed out, hassling the entire group with a policy that probably won't even deter the abusers is insane. If this is costing the company so much, and they want to fix it right, they need to hire private investigators to bust these guys one by one. If they know who they are, sooner or later, they'll be able to catch them with photos or other evidence of not being sick on a sick day. Won't take but a couple people being fired over sick leave abuse, and then whole thing will fix itself.
If I were asked to repair Section 14 in this TA, this is what I would do:
- Eliminate all verification requirements except for a single illness in excess of 14 days (no cumulative 100 hours, no cumulative 14 days). We're all adults here. If you give me the power to screw you over, you might be surprised at how I go out of my way to be a good steward of that responsibility.
- Along those lines, still allow voluntary verification, simply to give a pilot who is seeing a doctor anyway the ability to clearly show his illness is legitimate, and despite the elimination of verification thresholds.
- Allow the company to strengthen "good faith basis" language to make it easier to discipline those who are clearly abusing the sick leave system (defined only as calling in sick when not sick, not by usage or subsequent GS behavior). This could include a list of behaviors that—absent CPO approval—would be grounds for discipline, up to termination, if performed while sick, such as non-revving, operating an aircraft (whether for profit or recreation), working other jobs, activities incompatible with the illness, etc.
- I'm okay with making the dropped rotation count to FAR and/or contractual limits to curtail subsequent GS/WS pick ups. However, I would insist that there be no carve-out to benefit the company after other pilots are exhausted. If they want this provision, they lose the pilot for those hours. They need to weigh whether preventing a sick pilot from picking up flying later in the month that he wouldn't otherwise be legal for is more important to them than being able to cover the trip.
- No medical release except for single illness over 30 days or "good faith basis." Records limited to illness at hand. Records destroyed within 30 days of pilot returning to the line.
Similarly, I think they can fix the OE drop issue by having a WS that overlaps an OE drop pay only for the days not touching the original rotation, while a GS pays single-pay during the original rotation's footprint (and double outside it).
They make these changes (or something similar) and this TA passes, unimpressive as the rest of it remains.
07-08-2015, 08:16 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 4,116
All of you are buying into the argument using earned sick leave is abuse.
And the reason you are doing so is because the use of sick leave by a pilot triggers cascading scheduling problems because of chronic understaffing by the company.
And instead of arriving at the obvious and appropriate solution..... which is to expect the company to staff adequately.....you are looking to render ineffective the only economic leverage (GS) we have to compel the company to properly staff.
And the reason you are doing so is because the use of sick leave by a pilot triggers cascading scheduling problems because of chronic understaffing by the company.
And instead of arriving at the obvious and appropriate solution..... which is to expect the company to staff adequately.....you are looking to render ineffective the only economic leverage (GS) we have to compel the company to properly staff.
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